J. Müncheberg Bf 109E-7 white 12 camo color ???

[le_steph40]

Hello all,

A stupid question: Did the Bf 109E-7 "white 12" flown by J. Muncheberg, 7./JG26 in March 1941 is RLM74/75/76 or RLM71/02/65 ???
I read all the versions (hypotheses) regarding the color camo of this aircraft...

TIA, best regards
Steph

 

[Wurger]

Müncheberg flew two aircraft while operating from Sicily at the beginning of the 1941, White 1- Bf109E-4 and White 12 - Bf109E-7, both of them seem to be finished in similar 02/71 camouflage schemes. However the Müncheberg's unit had been equipped with new Bf109E-7/N before moved to Sicily. The RLM74/75/76 scheme was introduced at the beginning of 1942 so I believe that Bf109Es stayed with the old RLM71/02/65 "uniform" untill that time.

 

[stona]

Certainly not a stupid question,it's actually a very good one!Tricky and impossible to tell the two schemes apart in photos. In the absence of any other evidence I'd agree with Wurger and go 71/02/65.
Steve

 

[Wotan]

IMHO 75/74

 

[stona]

IMHO 75/74

Perfectly valid opinion Wotan,and the reason for the confusion. I've seen models finished in both schemes. The reason that Wurger and I have suggested the earlier scheme is simply the time frame. There is certainly evidence that Messerschmitt started applying the 74/75 grey scheme before the official RLM instruction but not I believe early enough for these aircraft.
In the end it is a choice Steph will have to make,whichever he chooses noone can prove it wrong!
Cheers
Steve

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,

Finally, I think she will be RLM74/75/76, I found something:

"Grey Camouflage?

Although often totally destroyed, all enemy aircraft that came down in the British Isles during the Second World War were thoroughly examined by intelligence teams from the Air Ministry and RAF. The reports created from these examinations were known as Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports, and recorded such information as Werk Nummer, engine type, armament, additional or special equipment and often, markings and colours. However, and to the disappointment of many post-war researchers, there were no set guidelines in these reports for describing the shades of the colours found on these downed aircraft. Generally, any examination of the paint was confined to an evaluation of the type of finish and occasionally, some undamaged panels would be tested for paint durability.

By mid-August, the first uses of greys and blue-greys as an upper camouflage colour were making their appearance in these reports, appearing with increasing frequency as the battle progressed. 'light navy grey', 'two shades of grey', 'light grey with dark grey mottling', 'Battleship grey', 'mottled greys' and 'camouflage grey' were some of the descriptions given, along with mention of varying shades of green-grey and blue-grey. Were these an indication of the earliest use of the greys 74[9] and 75[10] that would become the standard fighter camouflage the following year or, as recent research and correspondence indicates, that they were colours originally created at unit level?

Since the appearance of the original version of this article I have received written confirmation from two former Jagdwaffe ground personnel confirming that on occasion, various grey shades were mixed and applied to some aircraft in an attempt to find suitable concealment when flying above the waters of the English Channel. Confirmation that this occurred ties in with known practices carried out on Luftwaffe aircraft where a new paint or colour was applied to selected parts of an airframe to test its viability under operational conditions. It can be found that the mixing of various combinations and percentages of the colours 02, 65, 66, 70 and 71, or similar colours in contemporary paints will produce a variety of grey and blue-grey shades. Most, if not all of these 'grey schemes' would have been suitable for use in the prevailing situation on the Channel Front in the latter half of 1940. It is reasonable to assume therefore that some of these shades were no doubt almost identical to the later 74/75 greys thus leading to the belief in some quarters that this series of colours had been applied to Bf 109s in the summer of 1940. However, as the use of 74/75/76 was not officially promulgated until the November 1941 issue of L.Dv 521/1[11], it is a wholly convincing possibility that the various greys used during 1940 were those from which they were developed."

Found here The 109 Lair- The Online Source for Messerschmitt 109 information

I read too that Bf 109E-4/N W.Nr.5819 flown by Adolf Galland in December in 1940 was "very possibly" in RLM74/75/76 or repainted in RLM74/75 on the upper surfaces...???

Thank you all for your help, cheers
steph

 

[Wotan]

There are color photos of the several Emil's of JG54/JG77 on Balkans spring 1941, and also Friedrich,s of JG53, which they received in February 41- rlm74/75

 

[Wayne Little]

I went with a 74/75 camo when I did this E-7 way back when...? sort of sand blasted upper camo making the colours a bit indistinct...

One thing to remember, the E-7 had cameras in the wings AND peculiar to 7/JG26 E-7's were small holes, most likely extra vents in the forward cowling, the victory markings I know now followed the Galland colouring sequence of Red and Black rather than just red.

 

[Wotan]

Wayne Little, it's not the camera, it's machine-gun port.
The wing was universal, and it could be installed MG17 or MG-FF.
The camera ESK was set on top of the left wing, but this is rare.

 

[stona]

Wotan do you mean colour photos (not colourised,there are plenty of them about)? Can you tell me where you saw them,it will save me trying to find them by leafing through dozens of books Also I'm off for a few days in lovely Belgium and might have to look next week when I get back.
The two schemes are almost indistinguishable in B+W images.
My hunch is that the lighter colour on the spine above the Balkenkreuz in this image is 02 but there is no way of knowing for sure.

Steph that article is about locally mixed grey colours,not the official colours RLM 74 and 75. The factory scheme,at the time these greys were appearing in crashed enemy aircraft reports,was still 71/02.

Nice job Wayne,that would look good in whatever scheme you chose!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Wotan]

some of them.
What assumptions will be?

 

[Wurger]

The wing was universal, and it could be installed MG17 or MG-FF.

Therefore I'm still thinking that the slit for cartrige-case ejection of the MG17s was still there. Although the fighter was armed with MG-FF cannons. In a few pictures of a BF109E restorations I have noticed these slits were sealed with a kind of tape and painted with a preservative and then a camo paint. So it is possible these can't be noticed for the reason.

My hunch is that the lighter colour on the spine above the Balkenkreuz in this image is 02 but there is no way of knowing for sure.

Also I have gotten the same impression when looking at the image that Steve posted. The colour applied to the part of the fuselage above the Balkenkreuz looks like the RLM02 in B&W tonalities.

Concerning these colour pictures of the WW2 time.... I would be really very careful of that.
Humm... interesting info about the Black 10 of III./JG77 I found in Kagero books about Emils. It is suggested that the plane was of RLM70/71/65 camo scheme with higher colour division line at the fuselage top. The RLM71/02 paints were applied on wing tops. The colour mix sounds strange but taking into consideration the machine was served in 8.JG54, III./JG77 and II./JG54 it might have been.

 

[Wotan]

Humm... interesting info about the Black 10 of III./JG77 I found in Kagero books about Emils. It is suggested that the plane was of RLM70/71/65 camo scheme with higher colour division line at the fuselage top. The RLM71/02 paints were applied on wing tops.

.......

 

[Wurger]

Yep .... these profiles are from Kagero Topdrawings no.4 booklet. The profile was reprinted in Kagero Monographs no.38 as well.

 

[Wayne Little]

Hey Vlad, accept what you are saying, but I'm sure I read somewhere Muncheberg's aircraft was fitted with gun cameras in the wings in those inner ports, i accepted this as clearly they are open and being used for something other than machine guns....

and on the 74/75 issue I was given a shot of White 3 from 7/JG26 and it really looks like 74/75 AND the "red" heart appears black! i'm sorry i can't post it as it was given to me for my personal use only, sorry.

 

[Hotntot]

These show a similar illustration to Wurger's #2 post. Does it help?

source: Warplanes of the Luftwaffe. Editor: David Donald

 

[le_steph40]

Hey Vlad, accept what you are saying, but I'm sure I read somewhere Muncheberg's aircraft was fitted with gun cameras in the wings in those inner ports, i accepted this as clearly they are open and being used for something other than machine guns....

and on the 74/75 issue I was given a shot of White 3 from 7/JG26 and it really looks like 74/75 AND the "red" heart appears black! i'm sorry i can't post it as it was given to me for my personal use only, sorry.

Another problem here... I already read that somewhere and some say that the heart was black (may be for not to confuse with JG77 Herz As...)

 

[Wotan]

.....I already read that somewhere and some say that the heart was black...

....

 

[le_steph40]

OK, no confusion possible = red ! thanks.

 

[Wayne Little]

Well, I always thought Red, but as I said "appears" black in the image I have, quite possible it is doctored?