Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 42,495
- Mar 26, 2007
Four Messerschmitt Bf 109Gs FOR SALE.
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GregP
Major
There is an entire hangfar full of Messerschmitts in Texas that is waiting for the price to go out of sight, and then it will be auctioned.
These Hispanos aren't all that valuable ... they may go for $250K or less, but not much more. There has been one for sale for YEARS for $350k with no interest.
When the real deal shows up, it might be different .. except there IS one real Bf 109E for sale up in Niagra Falls, Canada. No takers. Makes me wonder ...
These Hispanos aren't all that valuable ... they may go for $250K or less, but not much more. There has been one for sale for YEARS for $350k with no interest.
When the real deal shows up, it might be different .. except there IS one real Bf 109E for sale up in Niagra Falls, Canada. No takers. Makes me wonder ...
GregP
Major
All it takes is an engine mount, a Daimler-Benz, a propeller, a cowling, and a spinner. The DB-powered Bf 109 flying in Germany is, in fact, a converted Hispano.
I believe the scarce item is the Daimler-Benz engine, not the Hispano airframes.
If Daimler-Benz would make a run of DB 605's, I'd bet they could sell all they made easily ... assuming the price wasn't completely out of the ballpark. Considering the price of a Mercedes, that might be asking a lot.
I believe the scarce item is the Daimler-Benz engine, not the Hispano airframes.
If Daimler-Benz would make a run of DB 605's, I'd bet they could sell all they made easily ... assuming the price wasn't completely out of the ballpark. Considering the price of a Mercedes, that might be asking a lot.
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Piece of cake, then!
I guess the price depends on what work is required to bring them back to airworthy. (Let's not start that debate again!) If, as the ad states, they were flying when placed into storage, then they are worth quite a bit more than something that needs significant work to bring back to life.
GregP
Major
As a guy who has been and is currently working on an Hispano Ha.1112, I can tell you that any plane stored for many years without flying will take a large amount of work to make airworthy again. Parts are quite scarce and there is no guarantee an engine neglected for 20+ years is even overhaulable. It PROBABLY is unless they let water get into the inside, in which case it is probably not.
It is definitely something that can be done, but it isn't for those without deep pockets or at minimum have sheet metal fabrication and machine tools available. If anyone is interested, I can post some pics of our Ha.1112 in a few days. It's not something for the casual weekend tinkerer to tackle.
It is definitely something that can be done, but it isn't for those without deep pockets or at minimum have sheet metal fabrication and machine tools available. If anyone is interested, I can post some pics of our Ha.1112 in a few days. It's not something for the casual weekend tinkerer to tackle.
I've been involved in enough restorations to know exactly what you mean. But there is still a world of difference in the work involved with returning an aircraft that has been properly stored, and one that has been damaged and pushed into the back of a hangar.
GregP
Major
You said it better than I did, and you are spot on correct.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I think I would prefer the Fw 190 and save a few $$.
That is a static restoration.
Those 109's are 90% of the way to flying. Unfortunately, the last 10% of the work takes 90% of the time and money...
GregP
Major
Hence the old saying about building a kit aircraft, "When you are 90% finished, there's only 50% more work to do."
GregP
Major
Pretty good, Cimmex! Thanks.
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Snautzer01
Honourably banned
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- Mar 26, 2007
@GregP i would love to see any pic of the restoration!!
These are the HA-1112 credited to the collection.
HA-1112-M1L c/n unkn C.4K-111, ex-471 Sq "471-15", movie: Battle of Britain, Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 166 C.4K-106 (N90607), movie: Battle of Britain "Yellow 8", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 187 C.4K-99 (N90604), ex-7 Sq "7-77", movie: Battle of Britain "Yellow 5", Yellow 5 , Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 190 C.4K-126 (N90603), movie: Battle of Britain "Red 9", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 220 C.4K-152 (N4109G), movie: Battle of Britain "White 5", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 223 C.4K-154, movie: Battle of Britain, Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
These are the HA-1112 credited to the collection.
HA-1112-M1L c/n unkn C.4K-111, ex-471 Sq "471-15", movie: Battle of Britain, Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 166 C.4K-106 (N90607), movie: Battle of Britain "Yellow 8", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 187 C.4K-99 (N90604), ex-7 Sq "7-77", movie: Battle of Britain "Yellow 5", Yellow 5 , Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 190 C.4K-126 (N90603), movie: Battle of Britain "Red 9", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 220 C.4K-152 (N4109G), movie: Battle of Britain "White 5", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 223 C.4K-154, movie: Battle of Britain, Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
GregP
Major
I'll get some pics in the next few days.
Seeing the photos and the dust on that poor planes I have a propensity for the latter.....
GregP
Major
I just went and looked at the photos. Yep, they're going to be interesting to get flying again. The Ha-1112 has a couple of fuel bladders in the outer wing panels that we (Planes of Fame) removed and I can see the rust on the steel wing attach points. My bet is all new fuel bladders, I'd bet they have to replace the bearings in the stabilator trim and flap wheels and do some general repairs. The engines are probably Merlin 224's or 228's that will need a thorough overhaul along with the props. Ours used to belong to Bubba Beal and we'll use a Merlin 224.
There is also some wood to look at. The slats have wood backing and the radiator housing has wood in it, too. It's not a lot, but the radiator part is tough when it comes to access. Some of the cowling is fiberglass and might need some fiberglass attention.
At the museum, we took advantage of the opportunity to move the hydraulic pump from the engine compartment to behind the pilot's seat. That way the chance of fire from hydraulic oil near the engine is eliminated. We are currently in the process of making a new instrument panel.
Metric parts for these birds are scarce and you can wind up with a hybrid of mixed hardware. We had a beast of time finding landing gear uplocks when the originals came up missing. If we HAD some, we could have made some, but making them from the drawings that are available would be tough. New landing gear attach brackets and a new engine mount were found easily, though I have no idea if the source we used has any more of them.
One hint for potential buyer is that the wing attach bolts are hand fitted and tapered, so each bolt has to go back into the tapered hole it was fitted to, they aren't interchangeable. So you'll either have to re-fit them by hand or get the originals, and I mean ALL of them.
Nothing will help the fact that this airframe doesn't like to be operated from pavement, though. It's a grass-loving fool and you'll thank yourself if you can operate it from grass, at least for some of it's life. But, if you attend airshows with your new Hispano, sooner or later you'll have to deal with it's pavement manners. If you're going to look at one seriously, read the logbook and check out the number of groundloops it has had repaired. Most will have had at least a couple of them. It usually folds one gear into the well and the other past the stop and under the plane. The wing root area will plainly show the repairs if the wings are off the bird.
As I said earlier, I'll get some pics in the next few days.
There is also some wood to look at. The slats have wood backing and the radiator housing has wood in it, too. It's not a lot, but the radiator part is tough when it comes to access. Some of the cowling is fiberglass and might need some fiberglass attention.
At the museum, we took advantage of the opportunity to move the hydraulic pump from the engine compartment to behind the pilot's seat. That way the chance of fire from hydraulic oil near the engine is eliminated. We are currently in the process of making a new instrument panel.
Metric parts for these birds are scarce and you can wind up with a hybrid of mixed hardware. We had a beast of time finding landing gear uplocks when the originals came up missing. If we HAD some, we could have made some, but making them from the drawings that are available would be tough. New landing gear attach brackets and a new engine mount were found easily, though I have no idea if the source we used has any more of them.
One hint for potential buyer is that the wing attach bolts are hand fitted and tapered, so each bolt has to go back into the tapered hole it was fitted to, they aren't interchangeable. So you'll either have to re-fit them by hand or get the originals, and I mean ALL of them.
Nothing will help the fact that this airframe doesn't like to be operated from pavement, though. It's a grass-loving fool and you'll thank yourself if you can operate it from grass, at least for some of it's life. But, if you attend airshows with your new Hispano, sooner or later you'll have to deal with it's pavement manners. If you're going to look at one seriously, read the logbook and check out the number of groundloops it has had repaired. Most will have had at least a couple of them. It usually folds one gear into the well and the other past the stop and under the plane. The wing root area will plainly show the repairs if the wings are off the bird.
As I said earlier, I'll get some pics in the next few days.
These aircraft are near pristine compared with some of the restorations undertaken on recovered WW2 aircraft. Yes, it will be an expensive business for a prospective new owner, but as someone said above, at least 90% of the work won't need doing.
Fancy making this:
Into this?
Those Connie Edwards warbirds are new by comparison.
Cheers
Steve
GregP
Major
Great before and after there, Steve!
Was that for fun, or did taht wing actually go into that Spirfire? Just curious. If it did wind up there, that is even more amazing.
Was that for fun, or did taht wing actually go into that Spirfire? Just curious. If it did wind up there, that is even more amazing.
The remains were dragged out of the sea off the French coast. There was more of it than in the first photograph, but it was all in a similarly sorry state. It really did form the basis of the restoration and I know an attempt was made to use as much of the original as possible in the restoration, but at the end of the day this was a 'Frame ?' (can't remember which frame a Spitfire data plate is attached to) restoration. There is very little of the original P9374 airframe flying today. I'm not sure anyone has confessed how much the restoration cost but I'll bet it was millions of pounds.
Cheers
Steve
Cheers
Steve
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