Which Fw-190 ace shot down most P-51 and Spitfire?
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Nonskimmer
Captain
Give it time, friend. It's only been overnight. Somebody here will know. 
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
but just to clarify, do you want the man that shot down the most spits and P-51s combined, or the man that shot down the single most spits and the man that shot dowm the single most P-51s??
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- #5
"but just to clarify, do you want the man that shot down the most spits and P-51s combined, or the man that shot down the single most spits and the man that shot dowm the single most P-51s??"
Actually, its great if you can find both
I just curious that some top aces scored such high # aircrafts in the East, but relatively low in the west. I wonder if it had to do with German initial advantage in both aircraft and in tactic to thier Soviet counterparts.
For example, Erich Hartmann had 345 in the East, but only 7 in the West.
Gerhard Barkhorn got all his 301 in East, none in the West.
Günther Rallh had 271 in East, and only 4 in the West.
Otto Kittel——"the Annihilator of Shturmovik", got all his kill in the East, 267
Erich Rudorffer had a more balance record: 60 in the West, 26 in the Africa, and 138 in East front.
The reason I said Heinz Bar as the best Fw-190 pilot, because he had most balance record of top 10 pilots: 79 in the West, 96 in the East, and 46 in Africa
Heinz Bär also had 3rd highest P-51 shot record in Germany, toal 10 of them. Since he used jet plane later on and had a record of 16 from his jet, he probably got all his P-51 from his jet (does anyone know how many P-51 and Spitfire he shot using non-jet plane? how many P-51 he got from his Fw-190?
By the way, did Heinz Bar always use number 13 on his plane? whats the reason behind that? and how come I saw one of his Fw-190 had 23 instead?
Actually, its great if you can find both
I just curious that some top aces scored such high # aircrafts in the East, but relatively low in the west. I wonder if it had to do with German initial advantage in both aircraft and in tactic to thier Soviet counterparts.
For example, Erich Hartmann had 345 in the East, but only 7 in the West.
Gerhard Barkhorn got all his 301 in East, none in the West.
Günther Rallh had 271 in East, and only 4 in the West.
Otto Kittel——"the Annihilator of Shturmovik", got all his kill in the East, 267
Erich Rudorffer had a more balance record: 60 in the West, 26 in the Africa, and 138 in East front.
The reason I said Heinz Bar as the best Fw-190 pilot, because he had most balance record of top 10 pilots: 79 in the West, 96 in the East, and 46 in Africa
Heinz Bär also had 3rd highest P-51 shot record in Germany, toal 10 of them. Since he used jet plane later on and had a record of 16 from his jet, he probably got all his P-51 from his jet (does anyone know how many P-51 and Spitfire he shot using non-jet plane? how many P-51 he got from his Fw-190?
By the way, did Heinz Bar always use number 13 on his plane? whats the reason behind that? and how come I saw one of his Fw-190 had 23 instead?
I am not sure about 190 pilots I know against the spitfire Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller killed 68 Spitfires, making him he highest Spitfire killer but how many were in 109's and how many were in 190's I do not know. He was flying 190A-2's already in 1942 with III./JG 26. This would mean atleast 26 of them were with a Fw-190 between the dates of 27 March 1942 and 13 May 1943. During that same time he shot down 2 P-47's, 2 P-51's and 1 P-38.
For the P-51's it is pretty much the same as I can say above. I do not know how many were in 109's and how many were in 190's. I believe all of these were 190's but not sure.
Hauptmann Wilhelm Steinmann shot down 11 P-51's between 21 Jan 1944 and 18 Mar. 1945. He also shot down 7 P-47's, 4 Spitfires, 1 Typhoon, and 1 Mosquito.
For the P-51's it is pretty much the same as I can say above. I do not know how many were in 109's and how many were in 190's. I believe all of these were 190's but not sure.
Hauptmann Wilhelm Steinmann shot down 11 P-51's between 21 Jan 1944 and 18 Mar. 1945. He also shot down 7 P-47's, 4 Spitfires, 1 Typhoon, and 1 Mosquito.
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- #7
Kongo Otto
Airman
Top 5 Spitfire Killers:
Oberst Josef "Pips" Priller 68
Hauptmann Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 56
Major Hans "Assi" Hahn 53
Oberstleutnant Egon Mayer 51
Generalleutnant Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 50
Top 5 P-51 Killers:
Major Wilhelm Steinmann 12
Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Bartels 11
Oberstleutnant Heinz Bär 10
Hauptmann Franz Schall 10
Oberleutnant Wilhelm Hofmann 10
Biografie from Heinz Bär
Heinz Bär was born on 25th March 1913 in Sommerfeld, a city near Leipzig.
He joined the Reichswehr in April 1934,he was transferred to the new Luftwaffe at own request in 1935.
He became a Pilot on twin engined Modells.
He started the war as the Pilot of the JU-86 from JG 51.
He never wanted to be a fighter Pilot,but as the Pilots of JG 51 saw what
a Genius he was,they talked so long to him until he changed to Bf-109s
He shot down his first enemy at the 25th September 1939,it was the second air victory of JG 51
He added many more shot downs to his list until he was shot down 30 miles behind Sovjet lines,at 31st August 1941.He fought his way back to the German Lines.
On 1000 Missions he shot down 221 Aircraft ,including 16 4-engined and 16 victories on Me-262.
He was shot down 18 times.
Knights Cross 2nd July 1941
Oak Leaves 14th August 1941
Swords 16th February 1942
German Cross in Gold 8th June 1942
Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe 8th June 1942
He died in an civilian Aircraft accident during an air show
in Braunschweig-Waggum 28th April 1957
Greets from Germany
Kongo Otto
Oberst Josef "Pips" Priller 68
Hauptmann Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 56
Major Hans "Assi" Hahn 53
Oberstleutnant Egon Mayer 51
Generalleutnant Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 50
Top 5 P-51 Killers:
Major Wilhelm Steinmann 12
Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Bartels 11
Oberstleutnant Heinz Bär 10
Hauptmann Franz Schall 10
Oberleutnant Wilhelm Hofmann 10
Biografie from Heinz Bär
Heinz Bär was born on 25th March 1913 in Sommerfeld, a city near Leipzig.
He joined the Reichswehr in April 1934,he was transferred to the new Luftwaffe at own request in 1935.
He became a Pilot on twin engined Modells.
He started the war as the Pilot of the JU-86 from JG 51.
He never wanted to be a fighter Pilot,but as the Pilots of JG 51 saw what
a Genius he was,they talked so long to him until he changed to Bf-109s
He shot down his first enemy at the 25th September 1939,it was the second air victory of JG 51
He added many more shot downs to his list until he was shot down 30 miles behind Sovjet lines,at 31st August 1941.He fought his way back to the German Lines.
On 1000 Missions he shot down 221 Aircraft ,including 16 4-engined and 16 victories on Me-262.
He was shot down 18 times.
Knights Cross 2nd July 1941
Oak Leaves 14th August 1941
Swords 16th February 1942
German Cross in Gold 8th June 1942
Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe 8th June 1942
He died in an civilian Aircraft accident during an air show
in Braunschweig-Waggum 28th April 1957
Greets from Germany
Kongo Otto
- Thread starter
- #9
blackeagle_I
Recruit
- 4
- Apr 12, 2005
Most of the Priller's kills was in Bf109. I think the some other JG26 guys were FW190 ace who shot down most P-51 and Spiftire, such as Glunz. Hoffmann.
Erich
the old Sage
I think that if you study hard and long enough that you will find Herr Steinemann at the top of the list from his JG 4 days flying the Bf 109G
- Thread starter
- #12
Chiron said:
He still got 101 kills in 1307 sorties on the West Front before he was placed into the position of Inspekteur der Jagdflieger Ost for which he did not fly again during the war. Thats pretty impressive I think.
Chiron said:
Didn't look to hard!
Just kidding actually it is in quite a few websites and lists him as the highest P-51 ace. Actually if you had read the post I posted up there about Priller I listed Steinmann as the highest ace against P-51's Sorry I am just giving you a friendly hard time. 8) Wilhelm Steinmann
Erich
the old Sage
the best book on the man and there really isn't one but at least some interesting pics and some operations is volume 1 Sturmjäger, covering the start of JG 4. In French and also written in Deutch by Belgian author Eric Mombeek ...........
E ~
E ~
Will have to check it out.
Erich
the old Sage
Walter Dahl from his JG 300 days has been considered strongly as the highesst scoring ace against US fighters but my personal beliefs is that JG 300 is one of the most vocal units about claims-overclaiming of many of the single engine fighters units in the Luftwaffe. Have friends that would stab me if they read this but I feel it is true and that Walter was full of crap.............
Why do you belive that JG3000 was one of the worst ones when it came to overclaiming.
Erich
the old Sage
Adler :
my case in point. the CO of JG 300 Walter Dahl himself. It actually started on the first gefechtsverband with it's sister Sturm unit IV.Sturm/JG 3 on 7-7-44 during the Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben. while it was thought that Dahl committed himslef to the air battle he commanded from the ground with clear communication to IV.Sturm/JG 3's Gruppenkommandeur Willi Moritz during the setting up and carrying out of the attack. when the Sturm Fw pilots of IV.Sturm/JG 3 Walter Dahl was there to greet and congratualte them...........this is all on film which I have. Walter then as he had th scores added up made sure that Jg 300 pilots had their own scores {his unit} improved reatly for the days operation. but this is not the only one. all through July and even through the rest of the summer and fall months. the terrible slaughter of the US 445th bg on 27 September 44 comes to mind when JG 300 claimed a wild figure, and in reality the SturmFw's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked first and took out 18 of the 30 B-24's with no SturmFw's being shot down by return bomber fire......
My firm belief though is that JG 300 during it's nachtjagd Wilde Sau and Helle Nacht against the LSNF Mossies is very much legit in scoring...
E ♪
my case in point. the CO of JG 300 Walter Dahl himself. It actually started on the first gefechtsverband with it's sister Sturm unit IV.Sturm/JG 3 on 7-7-44 during the Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben. while it was thought that Dahl committed himslef to the air battle he commanded from the ground with clear communication to IV.Sturm/JG 3's Gruppenkommandeur Willi Moritz during the setting up and carrying out of the attack. when the Sturm Fw pilots of IV.Sturm/JG 3 Walter Dahl was there to greet and congratualte them...........this is all on film which I have. Walter then as he had th scores added up made sure that Jg 300 pilots had their own scores {his unit} improved reatly for the days operation. but this is not the only one. all through July and even through the rest of the summer and fall months. the terrible slaughter of the US 445th bg on 27 September 44 comes to mind when JG 300 claimed a wild figure, and in reality the SturmFw's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked first and took out 18 of the 30 B-24's with no SturmFw's being shot down by return bomber fire......
My firm belief though is that JG 300 during it's nachtjagd Wilde Sau and Helle Nacht against the LSNF Mossies is very much legit in scoring...
E ♪
Aha I see.
Erich
the old Sage
it's always one side vs the other as to whom claimed more when the Luftwaffe unit(s) were in a unified state. Many times JG 3 and JG 300 flew together and when JG 4 developed it's SturmFw gruppe in septmeber 44 then there was another contender.
Am sure the JG 300 two volumes when publicized this spring/fall will be illuminating although I am not going to concede that all claims-kills were done by this Geschwader when flying with other units, i.e JG 3, JG 4 and late in the fall-winter when JG 301 when is in the area although JG 301 and 300 were the main stay of Reich Defence in the winter of 45 till war's end
Am sure the JG 300 two volumes when publicized this spring/fall will be illuminating although I am not going to concede that all claims-kills were done by this Geschwader when flying with other units, i.e JG 3, JG 4 and late in the fall-winter when JG 301 when is in the area although JG 301 and 300 were the main stay of Reich Defence in the winter of 45 till war's end
