Maximum speed of the Reggiane 2005

[Gizmo]

Hi,
In various sources, I have found that maximum speed of the Reggiane 2005 is 678 km/h at 6950 m. But in HPM 11/2003 (article "Reggiane Re 2005 Sagittario" by Pejcoch Ivo) there is only 628 km/h at 6950 m. Also on that page:
http://fire.prohosting.com/hud607/uncommon/aircraft/re2005/index.html (see E-mail message one)
there is 628km/h for M.M. 494 prototype with originally German-bulid DB 605 engine (according official R.A. test of September 23rd 1942). 678 km/h are mentioned only as theoretical preliminary. Climb rate is much less too...


Does anyone have any additional information about that difference ?

 

[cheddar cheese]

Not sure what it translates to in metric but the speed ive seen on several sites is 421mph.

 

[Twitch]

I have very many books on WW 2 and aircraft. Many are quite old. Here's what I have-

Thompson, Jonathan
Italian Civil Military Aircraft
Aero Publishers, Fallbrook, CA 1963-----390MPH

Green, William
Fighters Vols. 2
Doubleday Co., 1961-----390MPH

Green, Wm.
The Complete Book of Fighters
Smithmark Publishers, NY, 1994-----421MPH

As we see the later publication has a increase.

One thing for certain is that evey Italian fighter that used the same power of 1,475 HP on a plane weighing about 7,800 lbs loaded had about the same top speed-

Macchi C.205N Orione- 390MPH
Macchi C.205V Veltro- 399MPH
Fiat G-55 Centauro- 385MPH

Only when we drop in the 1,750HP DB 603A in the Fiat G-56 do we see 426MPH.

I did read that the prototype did 425MPH- we must remember than all prototypes fly faster in tests since they don't have any armament installed! and like most Italian fighters the 2005 was heavily armed with plenty of ammo-

2- 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT w/ 350 rounds per gun
1- engine mounted Mg 151 20 mm with 150 rounds
2- wing mounted Mg 151 20 mm with 150 RPG


That's all I can offer.....

 

[cheddar cheese]

From what I know though, the Re-2005 was a little different to the G.55 and MC.205 in construction terms...Dogwalker can probably shed more light on this...

I have seen 421mph in most places, one site I just looked at stated it achieved 441mph but I find that hard to believe...

As a side note, Com.De Prato tested the aircraft at 980kph (around 607mph) without any problems, although this was almost certainly in a dive.

 

[Gizmo]

Iwe must remember than all prototypes fly faster in tests since they don't have any armament installed! and like most Italian fighters the 2005 was heavily armed with plenty of ammo-

2- 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT w/ 350 rounds per gun
1- engine mounted Mg 151 20 mm with 150 rounds
2- wing mounted Mg 151 20 mm with 150 RPG

I think that Re.2005 MM 494 prototype have fully armament installed. Vittorio Minguzzi from 362a Squadriglia claimed two B-24 kills on this plane.

There is excellent website about him:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_minguzzi.htm

 

[red admiral]

Common mistake No.1

The Italian RA 1050 Tifone, the licenced produced version of the DB605 produced only 1350hp. This was because it was limited to 2650rpm instead of the more normal 2800rpm. Only in 1944, when the limiters were removed did they produce 1475hp.

The speed of the G.55 was 620kph/7000 with the prototype MM.493 doing 623kph/7000. The Reggiane 2005 was faster than this. Thats 387mph btw. I'd be more inclined to believe the 678kph figure.

So that is 678kph on 1350hp most likely with tests being done on the first production aircraft. With 1475hp the 2005 should be able to run at 698kph or so.

6,560 ft / 2,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
13,120 ft / 4,000 m: 351 mph / 565 kph
22,800 ft / 6,950 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
22,965 ft / 7,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph

http://www.aldini.it/re2005/performances.htm

 

[Dogwalker]

From what I know, the usual figure of:
6,560 ft / 2,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
13,120 ft / 4,000 m: 351 mph / 565 kph
19,685 ft / 6,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph (6,950 is a mistake of Aldini,s site)
22,965 ft / 7,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
came directly from the Regia Aeronautica acceptance paper. To be accepted from RA for the production series the aircraft, even if it was a prototype, had to be tested with full ammo, and even painted.
All the fonts (even Ing. Gabrielli, itself) said that the Re 2005 was the fastest of the "5 series" fighter, and the official max speed of C-205 whit full ammo was 648 Km/h at 7500 m, so the Re-2005 had to be faster than that.
The official speed was obtained from the first prototype (MM 494), whit a RA 1050 Tifone engine, but I don't know if the limitation at 2650 rpm (that could be easily avoided in a test prototype) was operative.
Some fonts report a max Speed of 686 Km/h at 6,950m (from this the mistake in Aldini's site) for the prototype, but it was obtained (if it was obtained) first than the official tests of the RA, however Longhi ever refers to this speed as the max speed of Re-2005.
The second prototype (MM 495), for german's request, was fitted with an original DB 605, with MW 50, and a VDM propeller, and this reached up to 700 Km/h at 7000 m, but how much is this "up to" and the conditions of the test are unclear, since the germans themselves made the test.
The prestations of the production series fighter (if the word "series" could be used talking of Re 2005), like that of all the aircrafts of the war, probably fell below that of the prototype.

DogW

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

dude, just like 100 more hp can make it go like a whole lot faster!?!? wow cool fighter.

 

[Dogwalker]

Continuing with the RA 1050 Tifone engine. According with the Science Museum of Milan ( www.museoscienza.org ; reference: Aldo Curti, Aer Macchi M.C. 205 V - "Veltro") the Tifone vas rated at 1350 Hp only as continuous power rating, since the maximum takeoff power was ever rated at 1475 Hp.

DogW

 

[Twitch]

Dogwalker- S does that mean we should automatically boost these planes speed to over 420MPH?

Macchi C.205N Orione- 390MPH
Macchi C.205V Veltro- 399MPH
Fiat G-55 Centauro- 385MPH

 

[Dogwalker]

Dogwalker- S does that mean we should automatically boost these planes speed to over 420MPH?

Absolutely not. The max official speed of the C-205 was of 648 Km/h. 30 Km/h (5%) of difference in max speed, even if the aircrafts look similar, is nothing so strange.
For example, the G50 and the C200 had the same engine, look similar, but the C-200 was 35 km/h (7%) faster than G50 (and Re-2000, 20 km/h faster than C200, carryng 130 more Kg of gasoline), and what about Spitfire v/s Hurricane?
The Re 2005 was aerodinamically much more refined than the other two. Is the only "5 series" fighter that was not a direct descendant of his radial engined "early series" counterpart, since it had a completely redesigned, sleeker, fuselage and redesigned, thinner, wings (in fact, it had the narrow undercarriage, and two bulges to cover the 20 mm guns, since the wings were too thin to contain them).
On the contrary, the other two mantained the fuselage and the wings structure (if not the complete wing) of their ancestors.
Looking a picture of the Veltro you can see that the wider part of the plane was not the engine cowling, but the part of the fuselage directly ahead the cockpit. The Sagittario instead had the entire fuselage hidden behind the engine. Even the cooler was studied to reduce drag.
Not to say of the Veltro's frontal oil coolers.
Given that, a 5% of difference in level flight's speed seems normal to me.

DogW

 

[Twitch]

BTW- Gizmo- how on earth was it standard proceedure to flight test for performance with full armament installed!? That has never ever occurred in any other test flight scenario I have ever heard about or read about. Final performance figures do come at the ends of trial with all armament aboard but in the initial flights no weapons are aboard.

 

[Dogwalker]

Surely the first flights of any aircraft were performed without the complete load (but not ever without weapons at all, for example the first flight of the SS4 was pefromed with two 20mm guns, without cartridges I think, and without the 30 mm gun). but rarely the first flight was done in search of the maximum speed, and these are the private tests of the firm.
When an aircraft was given to the RA test pilots to be tried, RA was interested in it's performance in combat conditions, not without ammo, armour, or radio equipement.
Moreover the three series of fighter of RA were the results of three pubblic competition in wich the RA had specified his needs in terms of armament, installed equipements, gasoline load ecc..., and all the fighters had to be tried in the same, specified, conditions.

For example, this is a translation of the official RA acceptance paper of the C 202 series IV-VIII (Ing. Gianni Cattaneo),

C.202 - official specification given from technical direction of ministry of aviation C.A.670/I for the machines of series IV-VIII.
Power plant - 12 cylindres "reverse V" engine Alfa Romeo R.A.1000 RC41.
1175CV (1 HP = 1.013 CV) at 2500 rpm at takeoff (EP), 1100 CV at 2400 r/min.
Three-bladed constant velocity propeller type Piaggio P.1001 with a diameter of 3000 mm.
Dimentions:
Spread - 10580 mm
wing area - 16,82 square meters
length - 8855 mm
height - 3496 mm
weight:
Dry - 2350 kg
payload - 580 kg, of which: pilot - 80 kg; weapons - 60 kg; cartridges - 76 kg; radio equipement and other - 86 kg; fuel - 250 kg; oil - 28 kg
general takeoff weight- 2930 kg
flight-performance data (with the maximum weight of 2930 kg at takeoff):
Absolute maximum speed - 600 km/h at 5600 m
service ceiling - 11500 m
Armament:
two 12,7 mm machine gun SAFAT whit 360 cartridges each
two 7,7 mm machine gun SAFAT with 500 cartridges each.
Maximum speeds and time of climb:
sea level - 497 km/h
1000 m - 521 km/h, 39 s
2000 m - 544 km/h, 1 min 28 s
3000 m - 566 km/h, 2 min 28 s
4000 m - 586 km/h, 3 min 32 s
5000 m - 595 km/h, 4 min 40 s
6000 m - 587 km/h, 5 min 55 s
7000 m - 584 km/h

DogW

 

[Twitch]

Often aircraft evolve from the time the prototype flies until the time the "production" model is final. When a pre-production plane hits 386MPH it may not be the final configuration as the decided upon model. When it has been modified to satisfy the establishment interested in it the plane usually is slower and ends up like 371MPH top speed. Usually weight has been added somewhere dictated by the group paying for development.

Sometimes those flight test speeds are considered below expected and a more powerful engine is installed. And so on and on and on. It's always an interesting chain of events that sees a plane come into reality from a drwaing board. At least I think so.

 

[Dogwalker]

Infact the data I posted were not those of the C 202 prototype (MM545), but those of the IV-VIII series (a new acceptance paper was needed since the IV series had the two 7,7 mm guns). Apart for the new guns, the C 202 form was well estabilished at that time.

These are the data for the MM545 prototype (Gianni Cattaneo, picture www.airwar.ru )

sea level - 491 km/h
1000 m - 513 km/h, 34 s
2000 m - 537 km/h, 1 min 19 s
3000 m - 561 km/h, 2 min 26 s
4000 m - 582 km/h, 3 min 27 s
5000 m - 598 km/h, 4 min 40 s
6000 m - 582 km/h, 6 min 16 s

The C 202 series differed from the MM545 prototype in several thing (the retractable tailgear, the supercharger intake, something in the canopy, ecc..., but even the engine output increased sligtly during the production time) but this is not the case of the Re 2005.
As Longhi stated: "the Re 2001 was ruined for the requests of the RA. It was intended to be an interceptor, they wanted it to be able to do everything, so for the Re 2005 we decided to prevent every possible requests"
The prototype was fitted even with the central 1000 kg hardpoint and the two 160 kg hardpoints under the wings.
From what I know, the only modification requested from the RA was a shorter canopy (whit less glass surface on the sides and the frontal glass closer to the pilot's head).

DogW

 

[Twitch]

"It was intended to be an interceptor, they wanted it to be able to do everything" That sounds the same just about every aircraft project after WW2 in the US

 

[Dogwalker]

That sounds the same just about every aircraft project after WW2 in the US

Officine Reggiane factory at Reggio Emilia, assembly line of Re-2001

www.histaviation.com

DogW

 

[Civettone]

Sorry to bring this old topic forward again but I have been reading up on the Re.2005 and I also stumbled on this one.
The maximum speed of the Re.2005 is indeed clouded. In fact everything about the aircraft is. I am thinking of those structural problems which grounded it, the remarkebly positive test results at Guidonia which nevertheless showed a preference for the G.55, and the ultimate use by the Luftwaffe, over Berlin? over Romania? or just kept them in Italy?

I knew I had read something special about its maximum speed but couldn't find it. Now I just saw it was right in front of me, as given by the initial post which mentioned email nr 1 by Max Cappone.

Let me first say that the Re.2005 was designed with the smallest airframe possible, quite like the Heinkel He 100. As such it would be to be expected that the Sagittario would the fastest of the three.

At a forum I read arrigoni1961 state the following:

Tuttavia bisogna specificare che le prove di velocità massima effettuate sul prototipo, il Re.2005 MM.494 dal capitano De Prato nel luglio del'42(!) si svolgevano con queste modalità: si effettuava una picchiata, si livellava l'aereo, e, stabilizzati gli indicatori di bordo, si effettuava il passaggio sulla base dove si effettuavano le misurazioni.
Dopo diverse prove veniva stabilito il valore medio.
Altre prove, condotte senza la picchiata iniziale, danno invece la velocità "ufficiale" del Re.2005, 628,5Km/h a 6.950m, valori comunque ragguardevoli tenuto conto che sono raggiunti con l'aereo completamente rifornito di armi, munizioni e benzina.

He says that the 678 km/h recording was obtained by several tests where the pilot would dive down, level the aircraft and fly over the base.
Once armed and with more fuel, the official speed was 628,5 km/h at 6,950m.
Ceiling was 11,500 meters and range around 980 km. Climb time:
To 5,000 m: 5 min.56
To 6,000 m: 6 min.33 but 7 min 25 sec (official R.A. test of September 23rd 1942)
To 8,000 m: 9 min.42 but 11 min 22 sec (official R.A. test of September 23rd 1942)

Other than that, I remember reading an article by Max Cappone on the story behind the 700 km/h Luftwaffe test. But I still cannot locate it. Maybe soon. The only thing I could find was this:

RE. 2005 "LW"
Following a request of the R.L.M. (as done for other italian fighters) the MM 495 was refurbished at LW standards (end July '43).
Main modifictions : the FIAT engines was replaced by en original DB engine, the Piaggio P.2001 propeller was replaced by an original V.D.M. propeller with relative hub and the gas throttle (control) was inverted.
This "prototype" was tested in Guidonia and the speed performances resulted improved (628 Kph with FIAT engine and more than 650 Kph with DB engine). The MM 495 was then bought by R.L.M. and moved to Rechlin airfield.
The other Sagittarios used by LW were certainly former R.A. aircarfts.


About the structural problems:

Of the three aircraft scrambled on 21 August, MM.096101 (flown by Biagini, now with the 35 Squadriglia) returned with its rear fuselage severely damaged. On 25 August, three 362" and a single 369" machine were scrambled, but Lt Dario Signorini was brought down near Piedimonte D'Alife by a formidable tailplane vibration while flying MM.092356. The aircraft was lost, but the pilot made a successful parachute jump despite becoming unconscious.
After this two episodes, the RE 2005 fleet was grounded and two S.82 transports flew back to Reggio Emilia the two fuselages with structural damage.
On 25 August De Prato carried out test dives at Guidonia. He then flew the aircraft, possibly MM.096101, back to Reggio Emilia where three more dives were made on 27, 29 and 31 August.
According to De Prato's 1950 account, the tests concluded that the "shaking" began at 660 kph true air speed and that they were caused by inadequate dynamic balancing of the empennage, the ballance was probably lost during full excursion rudder maneuvers performed by the pilots during dives. After correcting the ballancing, De Prato dived the aircraft to 988 kph TAS, convincing himself that the structure of the RE 2005 was fully capable of pulling g's, but that trouble arose when "such problems were caused due to the uncontrolled maneuvers necessary in war situations."
In other words " Our pilots were used to small rudder control surfaces, such those of Maccis and Messershmitts,with such aircrafts full excursion rudder movements were not a problem the rudder freely during dives.
The VNE (velocity to be not exceded) with rudder extended left or right of more than half course was calculated at around 800 kph.
RE2005 in action


Oh yeah as a sidenote, apparently ir Longhi completed the Re.2006 prototype (with DB 603) in February 1944 but the local partizan leader forbade him to test fly it. So then he had to come up with excuse after excuse to the Germans what was causing the delay, eventually leading to a temporary arrest. What chaos!

Kris

 

[CORSNING]

Maximum speeds and time of climb:
sea level - 497 km/h
1000 m - 521 km/h, 39 s
2000 m - 544 km/h, 1 min 28 s
3000 m - 566 km/h, 2 min 28 s
4000 m - 586 km/h, 3 min 32 s
5000 m - 595 km/h, 4 min 40 s
6000 m - 587 km/h, 5 min 55 s
7000 m - 584 km/h

DogW

I understand that this thread is pretty much closed and unless anyone can
produce new information on the speed (with documentation) of the
Re.2005, I do not wish to get into a lengthy discussion.
My point of posting is......Does anyone have a way of explaining the times
posted here to 1,000 & 2,000 m.? 39 seconds = .65 minutes.
That translates into an average climb rate to 3,280.84 ft. as 5,047 fpm.
and 4,017 fpm average between 3,280.84 and 6,561.68 ft. for the
production model M.C.202 series IV-VIII.
Those figures are extremely good for a piston engine fighter at the end of WW2.
The prototypes climb to 1,000m. = 5,790 fpm. Yet I have not read of this aircraft
as having a fantastic climb...? Very good, but not fantastic as the above figures
would indicate.

Some light on the subject greatly welcome, Jeff

 

[MycroftHolmes]

From what I know, the usual figure of:
6,560 ft / 2,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
13,120 ft / 4,000 m: 351 mph / 565 kph
19,685 ft / 6,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph (6,950 is a mistake of Aldini,s site)
22,965 ft / 7,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
came directly from the Regia Aeronautica acceptance paper. To be accepted from RA for the production series the aircraft, even if it was a prototype, had to be tested with full ammo, and even painted.
All the fonts (even Ing. Gabrielli, itself) said that the Re 2005 was the fastest of the "5 series" fighter, and the official max speed of C-205 whit full ammo was 648 Km/h at 7500 m, so the Re-2005 had to be faster than that.
The official speed was obtained from the first prototype (MM 494), whit a RA 1050 Tifone engine, but I don't know if the limitation at 2650 rpm (that could be easily avoided in a test prototype) was operative.
Some fonts report a max Speed of 686 Km/h at 6,950m (from this the mistake in Aldini's site) for the prototype, but it was obtained (if it was obtained) first than the official tests of the RA, however Longhi ever refers to this speed as the max speed of Re-2005.
The second prototype (MM 495), for german's request, was fitted with an original DB 605, with MW 50, and a VDM propeller, and this reached up to 700 Km/h at 7000 m, but how much is this "up to" and the conditions of the test are unclear, since the germans themselves made the test.
The prestations of the production series fighter (if the word "series" could be used talking of Re 2005), like that of all the aircrafts of the war, probably fell below that of the prototype.

DogW

Those performance figures must be wrong: what other aircraft had exactly the same top speed at 2000, 6000 and 7000 metres? I'd expect the speed at 2000 metres to be closer to 320-330 mph.