On Soviet turning time tests. Comments Please

[Juha]

Hello
On the Soviet turning tests, I have put together what I have found from various secondary sources and made comment on some about how Finns saw things. Only info which clearly bothered me is that of LaGG-3 series 28, much better than how Finns thought it was. If someone has better info on Soviet tests, I'd like to hear it. And of course other comments are warmly welcome.

TIA
Juha

I-153 (1939) "Gukll"
- 11.4-14 sec (Finnish tests 12 sec, radius 110m, maybe the most feared opponent to Fokker D. XXI pilots during Winter War, FAF used war booty I-153s as a frontline a/c to autumn 44, during later part of the Continuation War (25 Jun 41 – 4 Sept 44) as recon fighter, last kill on 29 July 44, a P-39 from 773 IAP)

Yak-1M
- 17

Yak-9 (1943)
- 17 sec (Finns thought that Yak-9 was very manoeuvrable)

I-16 type 29 (1940)
- 16-19

P-40C
- 18,0s mid. at 3290 kg in 10/1941

Yak-1 (1943)
- 18

P-39D-2 (with wing armament)
- 17,7-18,7 sec

Spitfire LF Mk IX (Merlin 66)
- 18,5sec


Spitfire Mk VB
- 18,8 sec

LaGG-3 series 28 (1942)
- 19 (Finnish tests for war booty LaGG-3 series 4 (LG-1) with wings mod with slots: 23s with 40km/h speed loss, the same plane shot down a Soviet LaGG-3 from 415 IAP on 16 Feb 44 after fairly long turning fight, the fight began as an head on meeting with 2 escorting LaGG-3s against the LG-1. After a while after an head on pass one of the Soviet LaGGs disengaged but the second continued the turning fight until it was hit after which it tried disengage but the FAF pilot followed and shot it down. So Finns were not altogether hopeless in flying early LaGG-3s, there were some other contacts with FAF and Soviet LaGG-3s which ended without losses on either side. IMHO in early 44 Soviet LaGG-3s should have been at least series 28 or later. Finns concluded that LaGG-3 turned more or less as well as 109G. When Finns tested LaGG-3 against Hawk 75A, LeLv 32 (Fighter Squadron/Jagd Gruppe) used both in combat, conclusion was that if at the beginning LaGG-3 was behind Hawk 75A after only 1½ turns situation was reversed.)

LaGG-3 series 66 (1943)
- 19 (this lightened version was IMHO better than series 28, a LW top ace, IIRC Barkhorn, told later that hardest fight he ever fought was a long duel against a LaGG-3 from a GIAP in 1943/44, which ended when both disengaged simultaneously, so late over the Southern sector IMHO the LaGG must have been the lightened series 66 a/c. Finns met these a/c in summer 44, they were transferred from south to reinforce Soviet attack forces, but I recall only comments on their good tactics and unusual camo from combat reports.)


La-5FN (1943)
- 19 (Finns thought that La-5F/FN was a bit better turner than 109G at low level)

P-40E
- 19,2s mid. at 3840 kg in 07/1942

Hurricane IIA
- 19-20 sec

La-5F (1943)
- 19-20 (Finns thought that La-5F/FN was a bit better turner than 109G at low level, high back La-5, which Finns called LaGG-5, was more or less equal to 109G-2 in low-speed turning fight at low level)

Yak-7B
- 19-20 (Finns misidentified some Yak-7Bs as Spitfires, they were told that they might met Spitfires, and thought that they didn't live up their high reputation)

Yak-9D
- 19-20

Yak-9M
- 19-20


Me 109F-4
- 19,6 ( sometimes 19,8 ) -20.5 NII (Soviet max speed for the ac on slow side, so prob. some problems)

P-39Q-15, without gunpods.
- 20-21sec (From 3./HLeLv 34 report on actions during the hectic summer 44. "AC (P-39) is more or less as good as La-5 (at this stage means La-5Fs and FNs) but maybe less manoeuvrable.")


Me 109G-2
- >20-21,5 middle 21 NII (Finnish tests 22 sec)

Yak-1 (1942)
- 21

Yak-7B (1943)
- 19-23


FW-190 A4 turn rate is
- 23-24s LII-NKAP
- 22-23s NII-VVS

MiG-3 (1942)
- 23 (Finns: at lower level not very manoeuvrable in horizontal plane)

 

[claidemore]

Juha,
Excellent information.
I have to say that as a contributor to these forums you have provided a wealth of information from sources that many of us were unaware of or would not have thought of.

Russian Aviation Museum lists the following:
Yak 1 (1941) 19 sec
Yak 1 (1942 Winter variant) 19.5 sec (heavier due to insulation, heating ducts etc)
Yak 1b 19 sec.
Yak 1 M105PF , 18 sec
Only the pre-production Yaks show turn time as low as 21 sec.
The lightened Yak 1, (30 produced) had turn times as low as 17 seconds.

Pretty much agrees with WWII pilot opinions and anecdotes.

 

[Juha]

Hello
thanks for the kind words and especially for the extra info.

Juha

 

[VG-33]

Hello

I-153 (1939) "Gukll"
- 11.4-14 sec (Finnish tests 12 sec, radius 110m, maybe the most feared opponent to )

Was it a I-153 with a M62 or a M63 engine

LaGG-3 series 28 (1942)
- 19 (Finnish tests for war booty LaGG-3 series 4 (LG-1) with wings mod with slots: 23s with 40km/h speed loss,

Slots? What for? LG-1 already got wing fences.


You say 4 series, might be... but have you got it's serial number, please?
The same for the LG-2, and LG-3

The LaGG-3 turn ability was very much depending on it's weight. First series were weighting 3160-3200 kg. Heaviest 3347kg (34 series), last 1943- 1944 series less than 2950-3000kg.

IMHO in early 44 Soviet LaGG-3s should have been at least series 28 or later. Finns concluded that LaGG-3 turned more or less as well as 109G.

Very possible, 28 series were buided since spring-summer 1942.

La-5F (1943)
- 19-20 (Finns thought that La-5F/FN was a bit better turner than 109G at low level, high back La-5, which Finns called LaGG-5, was more or less equal to 109G-2 in low-speed turning fight at low level)
La-5FN (1943)
- 19 (Finns thought that La-5F/FN was a bit better turner than 109G at low level)

There were as much Lavotchkin's as produced planes. The production quality was very hetereogenous.
So the serial La 5FN weight was ranging from 3158 to 3320 kg and even some 3457 for the experimental ones. In 1943 the mid-weight was 3285 kg. Engine test bench results were given from 1823 to 1910hp for the Shvetsov M82. The best turner were lightened, smoothed La- 5FN with either metallic either Delta D spars from factory n°381: 18,5s with nominal (1700 hp) power. Mass-serial FN from zavod 21 were assembled with a lower quality.

By the way, the La-5 FN tested by Lerche at Rechlin was probably a simple La-5, not even a La-5F, remotorised with a M 82 FNV engine*, since overall weight and engine controls are not correspunding to the FN

* M-82 FNV (V for Vprysk) had to be produced from late autumn 1942 to spring 1943. Then the V letter disappeared

Hurricane IIA
- 19-20 sec

Yes, but with soviet 91 octane fuel and 4 extra ShVAK guns, 17-18 without them.

MiG-3 (1942)
- 23 (Finns: at lower level not very manoeuvrable in horizontal plane)

So as for Lavotchkins, MiG 1/3 weights were ranging from 3095 to 3450kg. Some had wing slats, some had not.

Regards

 

[Juha]

Hello VG-33
Thanks a lot for the interesting info.

On I-153, I don't know the engine, the turn info was given in connection of Gladiator test as for comparison figure.

Finns modified wings of LG-1, they added five small slots to each wing. LG-1 c/nr 070171, LG-2 c/nr 0110072, LG-3 c/nr 3121357.

Thankfully
Juha

 

[MikeGazdik]

Nice info. I am very surprised at the "comparatively" slower times for the Spitfire.

Is there any data, that can compare to what you have posted, for the P-51 and just for fun, the P-47?

 

[Juha]

Hello
I updated my list according to the new info provided by VG-33 and Claidemore.
Many thanks to Claidemore and specially to VG-33
Juha

I-153 (1939) "Gukll"
- 11.4-14 sec (Finnish tests 12 sec, radius 110m, maybe the most feared opponent to Fokker D. XXI pilots during Winter War, FAF used war booty I-153s as a frontline a/c to autumn 44, during later part of the Continuation War (25 Jun 41 – 4 Sept 44) as recon fighter, last kill on 29 July 44, a P-39 from 773 IAP)

Yak-1M
- 17

Yak-9 (1943)
- 17 sec (Finns thought that Yak-9 was very manoeuvrable)

I-16 type 29 (1940)
- 16-19

Hurricane IIA
- 17-18 (original armament)

Spitfire F Mk IX
- 17,5 sec

P-40C
- 18,0s mid. at 3290 kg in 10/1941

Yak-1 (1943)
- 18

P-39D-2 (with wing armament)
- 17,7-18,7 sec

Spitfire LF Mk IX (Merlin 66)
- 18,5sec


Spitfire Mk VB
- 18,8 sec

P-39 (subtype unclear, maybe D or Q with Soviet fuel; frontline units, at least 9 GIAD, usually used US 100 oct)
- 19

LaGG-3 series 28 (1942)
- 19 (Finnish tests for war booty LaGG-3 series 4 (LG-1) with wings mod with slots: 23s with 40km/h speed loss, the same plane shot down a Soviet LaGG-3 from 415 IAP on 16 Feb 44 after fairly long turning fight, the fight began as an head on meeting with 2 escorting LaGG-3s against the LG-1. After a while after an head on pass one of the Soviet LaGGs disengaged but the second continued the turning fight until it was hit after which it tried disengage but the FAF pilot followed and shot it down. So Finns were not altogether hopeless in flying early LaGG-3s, there were some other contacts with FAF and Soviet LaGG-3s which ended without losses on either side. IMHO in early 44 Soviet LaGG-3s should have been at least series 28 or later. Finns concluded that LaGG-3 turned more or less as well as 109G. When Finns tested LaGG-3 against Hawk 75A, LeLv 32 (Fighter Squadron/Jagd Gruppe) used both in combat, conclusion was that if at the beginning LaGG-3 was behind Hawk 75A after only 1½ turns situation was reversed.)

LaGG-3 series 66 (1943)
- 19 (this lightened version was IMHO better than series 28, a LW top ace, IIRC Barkhorn, told later that hardest fight he ever fought was a long duel against a LaGG-3 from a GIAP in 1943/44, which ended when both disengaged simultaneously, so late over the Southern sector IMHO the LaGG must have been the lightened series 66 a/c. Finns met these a/c in summer 44, they were transferred from south to reinforce Soviet attack forces, but I recall only comments on their good tactics and unusual camo from combat reports.)


La-5FN (1943)
- 19 (Finns thought that La-5F/FN was a bit better turner than 109G at low level)

P-40E
- 19,2s mid. at 3840 kg in 07/1942

Hurricane IIA
- 19-20 sec (Soviet 91 oct fuel 4x20mm ShVAK)

La-5F (1943)
- 19-20 (Finns thought that La-5F/FN was a bit better turner than 109G at low level, high back La-5, which Finns called LaGG-5, was more or less equal to 109G-2 in low-speed turning fight at low level)

Yak-7B
- 19-20 (Finns misidentified some Yak-7Bs as Spitfires, they were told that they might met Spitfires, and thought that they didn't live up their high reputation)

Yak-9D
- 19-20

Yak-9M
- 19-20

Yak 1 (1942 Winter variant)
- 19.5 sec (heavier due to insulation, heating ducts etc)

Me 109F-4
- 19,6 ( sometimes 19,8 ) -20.5 NII (Soviet max speed for the ac on slow side, so prob. some problems)

P-39Q-15, without gunpods.
- 20-21sec (From 3./HLeLv 34 report on actions during the hectic summer 44. "AC (P-39) is more or less as good as La-5 (at this stage means La-5Fs and FNs) but maybe less manoeuvrable.")


Me 109G-2
- >20-21,5 middle 21 NII (Finnish tests 22 sec)

Yak-1 (1942)
- 21

FW 190A-4
- 22,5 sec

Me 109G-2/R6
-22,6 sec

Yak-7B (1943)
- 19-23

Mustang Mk I (Type is a guess but Soviet tested one of these and speed at 5000m (584km/h) indicates that also)
- 23 sec

FW-190 A4 turn rate is
- 23-24s LII-NKAP
- 22-23s NII-VVS

MiG-3 (1942)
- 23 (Finns: at lower level not very manoeuvrable in horizontal plane)

 

[Juha]

Hello Mike
I don't have additional data if one British test on Airacobra Mk I which compared it to Spit Mk V and Bf 109E doesn't have exact turn times. I don't have now time to dig up an article which gives some info on the test, especially because I recall that there are only verbal descriptions in it.

And there is the Mustang Mk I info in the updated versio. Yaks were very manouvrable, Polikarpovs even more so, so IMHO Spitfire times aren't surprising, and that of F. Mk IX in the update is a bit better.

Juha

 

[tomo pauk]

Thanks for the table, Juha al.

It seems that Hurricane was manuvreable every bit as I suspected, despite some fellow members rating it behind the 109, 190 and Spitfire ( for that category of a plane's abilities)

 

[VG-33]

Hello VG-33
Thanks a lot for the interesting info.

On I-153, I don't know the engine, the turn info was given in connection of Gladiator test as for comparison figure.

Finns modified wings of LG-1, they added five small slots to each wing. LG-1 c/nr 070171, LG-2 c/nr 0110072, LG-3 c/nr 3121357.

Thankfully
Juha

So, LG-3 was the seventh plane of the 35th serie, from the 21th factory in Gorki (Nijni Novgorod) of the 31 (first LaGG-3) type.

LG 1 and 2 were pobably Novosibirsk 153th factory planes...

But i still do not understand this story with slots on LG-1, have you got a fotography or a scheama , please?

Regards

Best regards.

 

[Juha]

Hello VG-33
Thanks for the factory info.

Juha

 

[MikeGazdik]

I suspected as much from the Hurricane. But it is so much slower than the others, with that big thick wing, it better turn on a dime!

It is amazing to me to see these turn rate numbers for all of these fighters. They really are so close. A few seconds difference is nothing more than pilot reaction time, or looking back or over a wing and lessening the pressure on the stick for only a moment.

This hardens the case in my mind that it was the Pilot and Plane marriage that made the Ace! You get the exceptional pilot, which is difficult, then put him in the exact right plane for his flying style to rise to the top, which again is supremely difficult, then put these two in the perfect tactical scenario where thier best attributes can be utilized to the fullest.

That really sets up an "All Pro" game in my mind. The best pilots in thier best aircraft...how would they perform against another All Pro?

 

[Soren]

Like I've said before I'd take the Soviet data above with a large handful salt. But that's just my advice to you guys, you are free to believe in what you want ofcourse. I will however note that the Hurricance was in general considered a better turnfighter than both the Spitfire Bf-109.

If you want to know the true turn performance of these fighter aircraft then I suggest you take a look at the physics, in my experience it never lies, ever.

 

[TheMustangRider]

Excellent analysis Mike, that's exactly the way I see things as well. About the "All Pro" scenario, I believe that the pilot that forces his enemy to fight into his advantages will come out victorious.

 

[drgondog]

Like I've said before I'd take the Soviet data above with a large handful salt. But that's just my advice to you guys, you are free to believe in what you want ofcourse. I will however note that the Hurricance was in general considered a better turnfighter than both the Spitfire Bf-109.

If you want to know the true turn performance of these fighter aircraft then I suggest you take a look at the physics, in my experience it never lies, ever.

Soren - the 'models' based on amateur physics seem to consistently miss real flight test results - turn perfrormance is not easily reducable to consistent analytical results when the curvilinear model is not linear!

 

[Soren]

Soren - the 'models' based on amateur physics seem to consistently miss real flight test results - turn perfrormance is not easily reducable to consistent analytical results when the curvilinear model is not linear!

Maybe that's because real flight test results vary wildly, and to no surprise as pilots aren't all equal in their handling of an a/c, and we both know this. Only the experts of the types can push them to the limit, hence why you see so many different opinions.

 

[VG-33]

Nice info. I am very surprised at the "comparatively" slower times for the Spitfire

.

Why? It had one of the best power to wight ratios, wing loading, best oswald number ~ 1

Is there any data, that can compare to what you have posted, for the P-51 and just for fun, the P-47?

23-25s for the P-51A in 42
27-28s for the P-47 in 1945

 

[Soren]

Considering that the P-51 only got heavier I'm abit curious as to how well the P-51D did in Soviet tests. 27-28 secs for the P-47 seems on the high side though, I'd expect better.

 

[VG-33]

Hello Mike
I don't have additional data if one British test on Airacobra Mk I which compared it to Spit Mk V and Bf 109E doesn't have exact turn times. I don't have now time to dig up an article which gives some info on the test, especially because I recall that there are only verbal descriptions in it.


Juha

Hello Juha

Soviet test results for their 109E-3's 26,5-29s at 1000m. Not very different from british values. And so for max speeds 542, 546, 548 km/h at altitude respectivly. (Rounded at 550 in NII official report)

By the way, have you got the turn rates records of Gladiators, DXXI and of course MS-406, Hurricanes, Curtiss Hawks, Caudron C-714 in Finish service?

Thank you very much...

VG-33

 

[VG-33]

Maybe that's because real flight test results vary wildly, and to no surprise as pilots aren't all equal in their handling of an a/c, and we both know this.

And vary for a plane to another, and from a day to another even on the same plane.

Only the experts of the types can push them to the limit, hence why you see so many different opinions.

No, not only. Listen i'v got some 90 hours flight in light aviation; Cessna, Rallye, Jodel...and 150 hours in gliders. So i will find the best speed with ease, the best climb or glide ratio after some attempts, and the best turn rate after a lot af trials. The problem that you have to find the optimal angle of attack on turn, only reading speed and side inclination.
The main difference is that the expert will find it immedialtly, a test pilot much faster as i would do, but physical limits of the plane are the same for everyone.

So if the Soviet, Finish, Hungrian, British test pilots did not succeed to make a better turn, handling the 109G-2, than in 22 secunds for instance, dispite your calculations that are giving 10 s, the problem may occur in your mathematical simplified model, not in test pilots handling capabilities.

Best regards,

VG-33