Luftwaffe Secret Projects 1939-1945

[delcyros]

Yes, if I recall correctly, the P.1101 wings are normal Me-262 serial prosuced wings with modifications for connecting with the fuselage.
But I think, what Adler also mentioned was that the P-1101 was avaiable for the US, they could study it more in detail (in order to understand the benefits and shortcomings of the swept back wing), while the 45 degrees swept back Me-262 HG-III was still in construction stage at wars end and the Me-262 HG-II, while completed (Werknummer 111 538), was unfortunately destroyed in a ground accident in early 1945. It should be noted that the US had some knowledge on their own research projects. There are documents which can proove that US scientists in early 1945 wrote an article to analyse Busemanns article about Pfeilflügeleffekt und die Herauschiebung der kritischen Geschwindigkeit (1937).
In the end it wasn´t successive because of the known shortcomings of the swept back wing design (which could be overcome with -for example- Me-262 slats, wing boundary layers and so on).

 

[CharlesBronson]

Two nice 3d pics of the Point defense interceptor Bachem Natter.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well i doubt the concept would work but she cirtainly was an interesting design.............

 

[cheddar cheese]

It might have been a great plane with phenomenal flight characteristics. Trouble is barely anyone who flew it lived to talk about it

 

[Smokey]

This aircraft is like a combination of a B2, Galaxy and B36

Messerschmitt Me P.08.01

http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep08.html

This forum compares it to the craft seen in Indiana Jones and the raiders of the lost ark

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=453878

http://www.indianajones.com/meta/expand/expand.html?img=/raiders/bts/news/img/20031014_2_bg.jpg

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes, if I recall correctly, the P.1101 wings are normal Me-262 serial prosuced wings with modifications for connecting with the fuselage.
But I think, what Adler also mentioned was that the P-1101 was avaiable for the US, they could study it more in detail (in order to understand the benefits and shortcomings of the swept back wing), while the 45 degrees swept back Me-262 HG-III was still in construction stage at wars end and the Me-262 HG-II, while completed (Werknummer 111 538), was unfortunately destroyed in a ground accident in early 1945. It should be noted that the US had some knowledge on their own research projects. There are documents which can proove that US scientists in early 1945 wrote an article to analyse Busemanns article about Pfeilflügeleffekt und die Herauschiebung der kritischen Geschwindigkeit (1937).
In the end it wasn´t successive because of the known shortcomings of the swept back wing design (which could be overcome with -for example- Me-262 slats, wing boundary layers and so on).

Well I stand corrected. That I did not know.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

A point most people seem to overlook is that the Volksjager fighters didn't have any pilots good enough to fly them, that is if the Germans could find the materials, fuel, ammo etc.
So good design didn't seem to matter at that point.

As for Britains answer?

Well I think the Merlin engine with Riley cylinder heads would've kicked butt!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont really think the Luftwaffe lacked pilots to fly them. They had so many great pilots that survived the war. I think the fact that Germany lost all of its good pilots is over exagerated. Now the issue with Fuel was the major is issue.

 

[wmaxt]

I dont really think the Luftwaffe lacked pilots to fly them. They had so many great pilots that survived the war. I think the fact that Germany lost all of its good pilots is over exagerated. Now the issue with Fuel was the major is issue.

As Eric pointed out, 58 of 108 of the very best German pilots survived the war, and the best are already beating the odds to be the best. The 75% that fill most of the airforce it may be another matter. The AAF counts 13,623 German planes shot down. Assuming 50% (a number that I think is unrealisticly high), got out and fought another day, 6,811 pilots were lost. These numbers are AAF only and exclude losses from training, wounds, accidents, colisions and other causes.

Including Bomber pilots the Luftwaffe had what 3,500 experianced pilots in '41/'42, the chances that a majority of these lived through the war are slim.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes but I would not make that the major limiting factor for the Luftwaffe.

 

[Jazzeum]

Sorry if this is off the mark but a toy soldier company, King and Country, is making a Rammjager. The question has arisen as to whether this was just a design or an actual plane. Please see here for photos of the proposed model,Photos of Rammjager? - Treefrog Treasures Toy Soldier Forums

Also see here for some discussion, where the company got the idea from, and whether or not it was actually built, Where can I find a Fw Rammjäger jet - Treefrog Treasures Toy Soldier Forums

Since this seems to be the place to answer these kinds of questions, I would appreciate your input.


Brad

 

[Civettone]

I suppose this one Photos of Rammjager? - Treefrog Treasures Toy Soldier Forums is the same as this one: Oddities Rammer Aircraft Luft '46 entry ?

Kris

 

[Jazzeum]

I suppose this one Photos of Rammjager? - Treefrog Treasures Toy Soldier Forums is the same as this one: Oddities Rammer Aircraft Luft '46 entry ?

Kris

It may be. Does anyone know if a prototype was ever built or flown or was this something that just never got off the designing board.

I'm attaching pictures from where the King and Country rendition was taken.

 

[Erich]

yes there were captured examples of manned V-1's that were suppose to have clobbered the Elbe River bridges to keep the Soviets at bay. The mission though very hard to get volunteers for of course never developed . what did though was the useage of the standard Fw 190A-8 and A-9 for bomb attacks and possible suicides into the bridges. we are covering a bit of that in our forth coming book .......

 

[Jazzeum]

yes there were captured examples of manned V-1's that were suppose to have clobbered the Elbe River bridges to keep the Soviets at bay. The mission though very hard to get volunteers for of course never developed . what did though was the useage of the standard Fw 190A-8 and A-9 for bomb attacks and possible suicides into the bridges. we are covering a bit of that in our forth coming book .......

Erich,

Do you happen to know if a prototype was ever produce of the Rammjaeger or was this just a design that never made it off the drawing board?

Thanks in advance.

Brad

 

[Kiwikid]

What information do you have on the Ju-390 or 290 flying to Japan? What routes were taken, takeoff and landing locations and such. Ive been curious as to the nature of these trips for a while but have never been able to find any information on them.

The only flight to Japan by Ju-390 which there is evidence of was on 28 March 1945, from Bodo Norway to Tokyo direct.

First mention of the mission was by the radio operator (oberfunkmeister der U-234) Wolfang Hirschfeldt in his book "Atlantik Farewell: Das Letzte U-boot".

U-234 sailed for Japan from Kiel in March 1945. Unfortunately it suffered an underwater collision with another U-boat and had to put into Christiansand for repairs before continuing in April 1945. There is a 70 tonne (ton?) discrepancy between the loading manifest at Keil and the unloading manifest at Portsmouth new Hampshire.

There are also discrepancies in the items on that manifest. Two disassembled Me-262 were claimed to be loaded on U-234, but none are noted as unloaded. in USA.

The submarine carried a cargo of secret war material for the Japanese war effort and surrendered to a US Navy destroyer in the western Atlantic 14 May 1945. It appears that the colision made it vital that some items in her cargo be flown rather than shipped. Thus U-234 may have been partially unloaded in Norway. Hirschfeld said that there was a plan to send the most urgent cargo on by air.

Hirschfeld stated that a "special version of the FW 200" with additional fuel tanks had been built to tranship the most important items of U-234 cargo to Japan, with a fuelling stop in Manchuria. The idea had been scrapped when it was determined that it was not possible for the FW200 to reach Manchuria without overflying Soviet airspace.

The longest known distance for a non-stop FW 200 flight occurred on 10 August 1938 when a passenger version flew from Berlin to New York.

There, Hirschfeld's personal knowledge of the mission stops.

Another thread to the Ju-390's Tokyo flight was in Silesia where SS Kammlerstab was intent on evacuating a Bell centrifuge device, which generated ionizing plasma from mercury amalgams placed in it's core.

At the Berlin Document Centre there are records from the post war interrogation of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Schuster attached to SS-WVHA Amt-V zbV.

This officer stated that in the second half of April 1945 a Junkers Ju 390 attached to KG 200 was at Schweidnitz (an airfield SW of Breslau) where it loaded materials from a secret project coded "Cronos/Laternentraeger." The aircraft was painted pale blue and had Swedish AF markings. It was guarded by SS and concealed beneath tarpaulin. It is known to have taken off for Bodo in Norway, but nothing further is known of its activity.

At the time Ju-390V1 (werke nr. J4918 ) had been flown to Junkerswerke Dessau in November 1944 and stripped of propellers. It lay there derelict until April 1945 when it was burned to prevent capture.

The Ju-390 V2 marked RC+DA however was noted in Oblt Joachim Eisermanns logbook. According to his logbook he flew the Ju-390V-2 at Rechlin in February 1945

Author Igor Witowski pieced together parts of the evidence for this flight when the Polish government declassified wartime files in 1998.

Around February 1945 the Ju-390 V2 flew from Prague to Opole, Poland (near Ludwigsdorf) to collect cargo and according to interrogation reports of an SS officer involved with the flight (cited by Witowski from Berlin Document Centre "The Truth about the Wunderwaffe, pp 242) it then was flown to Bodo in Norway.

At Bodo, Norway, the Ju-390 V2 was also sighted in fake Sweedish airline markings.

Post war British Journalist Tom Agoston interviewed Dr Wilhelm Voss from Kammler's staff at Prague. Voss told Agoston of the flight to Tokyo from Norway via a polar route on 28 March 1945.

The claim is corroborated by Reichs Armaments Minister Albert Speer in his book "Inside the Third Reich."

Speer spoke of a Ju-390 flight to Tokyo "via the polar route" flown by Junkers test pilots.

 

[Kiwikid]

Richard Leonard wrote at page #6

With regards to the Ju 390 Amerika Bomber accounts, let me say that I think there are, ummm, just a few
problems with this story . . .

I think I have responded elsewhere about faults in the calculations that Rich cites, however the most glaring problem is this:

In September 1969 the pilot of Ju-390 V1, Hans Pancherz gave an interview for the Daily Telegraph newspaper. He referred to his Ju-390 flight to South Africa.

Pancherz has also published range v. payload charts for the Ju-390 which he compiled as it's test pilot which indicate a useful payload out to 8,000 nm.

Rich you have calculated the engines burning fuel at full power which equates over 900lb per hour, but in the cruise at 1700 rpm the Junkers would only burn 330lb per hour.

The Ju-390 could manage these great distances. It had a range comparable to a 747SP.

The power to weight ratio was no different to that of a B-29 so if you argue the Ju-390 could not do such a mission then you'd have to deny the B-29 raids over Japan as well.