Best guns of WW2

[drgondog]

Sorry I forgot to answer your question.

Yes I have plenty of experience firing the M1911A-1, a very nice but abit heavy sidearm (Heavy as in by contrast to other sidearms) The P-38 is also a very nice sidearm, very reliable and accurate. The Luger, well haven't shot it many times but the times I did it performed beautifully, being very comfortable to aim and shoot with, and pretty darn accurate - nt sure where the rumor that it was unreliable comes from, according to veterans it never jammed, not even in extreme cold (Most likely because it was always very well wrapped up when carried)

The Howitzer report is on the way, its from an allied intelligence bullitin where they interviewed US troopers at the front.

I never found a Luger un relaiable with commercial factory ammo but never fired it with military ball.. I liked the slight extra heft of the 1911A1 - firing 230 gr ball in that weight was easy.

Thanks for the Howitzer report - does it have a 'side by side' comparison?

 

[Soren]

Haven't had much success in finding the howitzer report, simply haven't had enough time, but you can find it on this site: Lone Sentry: Photographs, Documents, and Research on World War II

 

[drgondog]

I'll check it out. Thanks. Have a great Octoberfest

 

[Kurfürst]

I never found a Luger un relaiable with commercial factory ammo but never fired it with military ball.. I liked the slight extra heft of the 1911A1 - firing 230 gr ball in that weight was easy.

The Luger's main problem seems to be the fact that it was expensive to manufacture - a dang sidearm and yet it cost about as much as a standard issue Mauser rifle. Never fired it myself (for legal reasons, it's rather difficult to get live guns here), but got a replica loooong time ago and it's simply the most 'natural' gun I have ever had in mind hand. Perfect grip, great balancing.

Not sure about reliability, all semiautos I've handled are very sensitive to ammunition. It has a rather unusual mechanism, but I guess if it worked in the WW1 trenches, it worked everywhere, not to mention it's the 9mm itself was tailored for it and not vica versa!

 

[mkloby]

I have some personal experience with an M2 in an exercise as a FO. The howitzer firing was about 8 clicks away, as I recall. The target I was calling for fire on was an old tank hulk about 1000-1500m from me. The first fire I called in landed close, slightly short, but within the effective casualty radius. I adjusted the fire and seconds later there were 105s raining down within feet, all around the hulk.

How's that for a report of the M2's accuracy.

 

[Kurfürst]

Within feet, 8 clicks away..?

Unlikely for anyone who had seen an actual range&ballistic table for howitzers if you ask me.

 

[Soren]

I'll check it out. Thanks. Have a great Octoberfest

Thanks Bill, but I'm not from Germany


Kurfürst,

I agree completely, the Luger is a very well balanced pistol with a great grip and that was also the very first thing I noticed about it - it makes it very comfortable to shoot with.

mkloby,

There's no doubt that the M2 was an accurate howitzer, most ww2 howitzers are, however take a look on the website I linked, there US troopers explain how the Germans would blow small narrow roads to pieces with just one or two artillery pieces, not a single shell landing outside of the small narrow road. One soldier makes the following remark: "On the other hand, we were impressed with the accuracy of German field artillery. I've seen a 150-mm battery concentration hit a crossroads so consistently that engineers had to be called on to make it passable for a 2 1/2-ton truck. As far as thoroughness goes, the Germans get more out of a round than the devil himself gets on a lump of coal."

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Within feet, 8 clicks away..?

Unlikely for anyone who had seen an actual range&ballistic table for howitzers if you ask me.

Well he is talking from experience. He was the one calling it in.

 

[mkloby]

Within feet, 8 clicks away..?

Unlikely for anyone who had seen an actual range&ballistic table for howitzers if you ask me.

Seriously Kurfürst? Well, with that kind of response - what else can I say. You're right - I concede. I completely made that story up. You're book knowledge is superior to my actual experience. I'm sorry I questioned your numbers.

mkloby,

There's no doubt that the M2 was an accurate howitzer, most ww2 howitzers are, however take a look on the website I linked, there US troopers explain how the Germans would blow small narrow roads to pieces with just one or two artillery pieces, not a single shell landing outside of the small narrow road. One soldier makes the following remark: "On the other hand, we were impressed with the accuracy of German field artillery. I've seen a 150-mm battery concentration hit a crossroads so consistently that engineers had to be called on to make it passable for a 2 1/2-ton truck. As far as thoroughness goes, the Germans get more out of a round than the devil himself gets on a lump of coal."

I do believe it based off of my limited experience with field artillery. I will check it out when I get time later.

 

[drgondog]

Thanks Bill, but I'm not from Germany

Neither am I but I haven't missed too many in the last 30 years.. We usually try to get to Munich and Madrid this time of the year but missing this year.

 

[Soren]

Neither am I but I haven't missed too many in the last 30 years.. We usually try to get to Munich and Madrid this time of the year but missing this year.

I've never experienced it, but I've heard from friends that its well worth the long trip. I must admit I like the idea of women with lovely showing cleavages walking around with ten or more glasses of beer

 

[Kurfürst]

Well he is talking from experience. He was the one calling it in.

That's all right and I understand that, still, I have this itchy feeling it's not only pilots who have their own anecdotes... this is for a 152mm captured russian howitzer piece. I doubt other howitzers would be lightyears more accurate.

 

[mkloby]

Kurfürst - I'm glad you whipped out your book to prove your "itch" that this is an anecdote. That book is a great reference I am sure. BTW, I'm a military pilot - I have no vested interest in arty. When I said "feet," I probably more accurately meant meters, without realizing a campstool commando would be picking the post apart. I'll tell you what, though - the fire was not nearly as poor as in your table above.

Just a thought - before you degrade someone's experience, remember that just because you have a book that says something contrary doesn't mean it is untrue. I'm going out on a limb guessing that you don't have any experience of your own to back yourself. It's a shame - I used to think your posts were rather well thought out and insightful.

 

[Soren]

Oh dear...

 

[Kurfürst]

Dear Mkloby,

A few comments.

1, This 'book' was made by people with vastly more experience than either you or me.

2, I've seen our own arty on live fire excercise. There's a safety zone for a good reason. Doesn't concern flyboys but it rather concerned us, poor meatbags.

3, The table shows that for this particular piece of arty equipment, at 8000m 50% of the shells will land in a 70 meter long and 8.8 meter wide area. The area is typically ellipitical shaped along the longitudal axis, and the scatter can be described with Gaussian probability formulea. Which of course can mean that a few shells will land within a few meters, but most won't.

Sidenote : In case of a 152mm shell however, the diameter of the crater it will be making is about 10 meters, so 8 meters of sideways spread is little comfort anyways. The real dispersion will still appear distance-wise. If we take into account the size of a tank hull you've seen as a target, it sure seems less than it actually is.

That of course is true for before today's ballistical computers, which constantly monitor and adjust for barrel wear, ambient temperature, air pressure and million other things. However we're talking about WW2.

There's no need for you to take this so personal anyways. It's a discussion board, we merely exchange our opinions.

 

[Soren]

Guys remember things have probably been altered quite a bit within US army since WW2 the range adjustment piece for a M2 in the 70's up until now likely differs quite abit from its WW2 counterpart - hence why mkloby mentions the range was estimated in meters.

Just my two cents worth..

 

[mkloby]

Good point regarding the modern fire control center - I didn't think of that.

K - I apologize for my reaction. My experience may very well not be the norm. Maybe my grid coords were perfect, maybe the arty crew was sh*t hot, or maybe it was dumb luck. You're right - the men that compiled that data were probably arty officers with tons of experience, and I do not doubt its accuracy. Maybe I misunderstood you, but the part that got me was when you insinuated that it was a tall tale.

Cheers.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I've never experienced it, but I've heard from friends that its well worth the long trip. I must admit I like the idea of women with lovely showing cleavages walking around with ten or more glasses of beer

Having been to it many times, it is not worth it. There are too many people there. You are better off going to smaller fests that are all over Germany and less crowded. You pretty much get the same beer and the same big chested women.

Hell you are better of going to Munich when the Oktoberfest is not going on and just going to the famous Hofbrau Haus and you get the same. I will be at the Hofbrau Haus the first weekend in November.

Now having said that the Oktoberfest is a must atleast once in your life just to say you have been there.

 

[drgondog]

Having been to it many times, it is not worth it. There are too many people there. You are better off going to smaller fests that are all over Germany and less crowded. You pretty much get the same beer and the same big chested women.

Hell you are better of going to Munich when the Oktoberfest is not going on and just going to the famous Hofbrau Haus and you get the same. I will be at the Hofbrau Haus the first weekend in November.

Now having said that the Oktoberfest is a must atleast once in your life just to say you have been there.

Munich and Madrid are still my two favorite cities.. I remember my first trip down the Rhine on the way to Munchen with that Deja Vu sense of having done that before in a different time.

The summer after HS grad, before I reported for football practice at Ga Tech, I spent 60 days riding a Norton Commando from London to Calais (ferry) then up to Arnhem, on an excursion down the Rhine, on to Munchen - then to Vienna, Venice, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Porto and Lisbon ,across the mountains in S. France Normandy, Paris and back to London. MATS ride from UK back to Andrews AFB Greatest experience of my single life. I sold my Norton when I got back to US and cleared my trip expenses with the difference.

 

[tomo pauk]

Just've seen this topic...

#1: Sidearm: Browning HP, just because of many ammo in magazine.

#2: Personal weapon: PPSh-41, until MP-44 becomes available.

#3: LMG: MG 34 until MG 42 emerges

#4: HMG: ma deuce is the winner

#5: Mortars: Russian 50, 82 and 120mm pieces.

#6: AT guns (towed): 45mm, then 57mm zis-2, then 17pd

#7: Medium artillery: 122mm M 1938 howitzer

#8: Heavy artillery: 17 K 18 gun