Lancaster Turret
- Thread starter k9kiwi
- Start date
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I have minimal data on Lancaster turrets, thanks mate. 
Bf109_g
Senior Airman
Thanks for that Kiwi! A cannon-equipped mid-upper turret on a Lancaster would have been absolutely awesome to handle! 
- Thread starter
- #23
Turret manuals are about as scarce as hens teeth.
For some reason everyone gets wet pants over pilot instruction manuals, which are about as usefull as breasts on a bull when it comes to the actual construction of the airframe.
I am doing some serious digging into this and will update this thread with anything I get.
For some reason everyone gets wet pants over pilot instruction manuals, which are about as usefull as breasts on a bull when it comes to the actual construction of the airframe.
I am doing some serious digging into this and will update this thread with anything I get.
Hi Kiwi, I believe I have The nose and tail turrent diagrams around here some where very simular to the one top turrent of a lancaster that I posted here if you are interested I will look for them.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/weapons-systems-tech/fn-50-center-turrent-8234.html
genkideskan
Airman 1st Class
High,
Tony Williams write some outstanding books about Turets, aircraft guns ect.
CANNON, MACHINE GUNS AND AMMUNITION
Tony Williams write some outstanding books about Turets, aircraft guns ect.
CANNON, MACHINE GUNS AND AMMUNITION
- Thread starter
- #26
Micdrow
I think I have them, but others will be interested.
Somewhere around here I have details pertaining to the ammunition loading for the turrets as well to dig up, may take a while as 9 weeks later we have not finished unpacking everything from our house move.
I think I have them, but others will be interested.
Somewhere around here I have details pertaining to the ammunition loading for the turrets as well to dig up, may take a while as 9 weeks later we have not finished unpacking everything from our house move.
- Thread starter
- #28
Right have found out the appropriate Air Publications, they are
AP 1659A VOL III PT I SECT 14. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 5 SCHED OF PARTS.
AP 2799Q VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 82 LANC TAIL S.O.PARTS
AP 2799F VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 121 SRS 1 MK 1. S.O.PARTS
AP 1659A VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 5. MANCHESTER NOSE. S.O.PARTS.
AP2799H VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 150 MK.I LANC MID UPPER. S.O.PARTS
AP 2799F G VOL III PT 1. FRASER NASH GUN TURR- ET FN121 SRS. 1 S.O.PARTS
Apparently they are available for copy at Hendon.
AP 1659A VOL III PT I SECT 14. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 5 SCHED OF PARTS.
AP 2799Q VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 82 LANC TAIL S.O.PARTS
AP 2799F VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 121 SRS 1 MK 1. S.O.PARTS
AP 1659A VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 5. MANCHESTER NOSE. S.O.PARTS.
AP2799H VOL III PT I. FRASER NASH GUN TURRET FN 150 MK.I LANC MID UPPER. S.O.PARTS
AP 2799F G VOL III PT 1. FRASER NASH GUN TURR- ET FN121 SRS. 1 S.O.PARTS
Apparently they are available for copy at Hendon.
UPPER. S.O.PARTS
Apparently they are available for copy at Hendon.
Its amazing whats out there that you can find on the net. It just finding it when you need it.
propellerhead BF-109
Recruit
- 4
- Sep 28, 2007
hi there.
any ideas on:
what hydraulic fluid type did they use in those FN-20 turrets?
what kind of pressure?
all i can find out is that they run on individual pumps on a 24 volt system.
any technical pics would be appreciated.
I'm dying to find out....
cheers lads.
any ideas on:
what hydraulic fluid type did they use in those FN-20 turrets?
what kind of pressure?
all i can find out is that they run on individual pumps on a 24 volt system.
any technical pics would be appreciated.
I'm dying to find out....
cheers lads.
propellerhead BF-109
Recruit
- 4
- Sep 28, 2007
hi there,
i posted a comment for this thread, but it ended up in the other thread about bolton-paul turrets, so my apologies.
any info about FN-20, FN-5 and FN-50 turret hydraulics would be most appreciated,
cheers guys
ph bf109
i posted a comment for this thread, but it ended up in the other thread about bolton-paul turrets, so my apologies.
any info about FN-20, FN-5 and FN-50 turret hydraulics would be most appreciated,
cheers guys
ph bf109
propellerhead BF-109
Recruit
- 4
- Sep 28, 2007
disregard my last post, my apologies gents.
now i have read two posts above and am going about ordering copies of these Air publications from Hendon royal airforce museum, thanks for the help and reference.
prophead109..
now i have read two posts above and am going about ordering copies of these Air publications from Hendon royal airforce museum, thanks for the help and reference.
prophead109..
pinuche0706
Recruit
- 1
- Apr 7, 2009
Hello,
Someone knows it serial numbers of Avro Lancaster MK II equipped with ventral turret, notably if the DS822 MKII JI-T were fitted with.
Thank you
Roger
Someone knows it serial numbers of Avro Lancaster MK II equipped with ventral turret, notably if the DS822 MKII JI-T were fitted with.
Thank you
Roger
lancasterman
Airman
Link clearance tool.. Brilliant I have one in the collection and often wodnered what its correct name was
Cheers!
Cheers!
Gentlemen - This is my first post, but I suspect some of you may know me as I certainly recognise some names from other fora.
k9kiwi posted the following extracts fro Wallace Clark's books on RAF armament:
Identification of 7.7 mm (0.303 in) ammunition used in the Browning and Vickers K.
Service ammunition is identified in several ways, viz:
1. Labels on the container; 2. A code stamped on the base of the cartridge case; 3. Coloured dye on the annulus of the round (centre of the base); and 4. Colouring of the bullet tip (1939-1945)
The base marking gives the main details. These consist of: A. Code initials of manufacturer; B. Year of manufacture; C. Type of propellent (usually only Z for nitrocellulose); D. Mark of cartridge; and E. Type of bullet. The annulus colour code is found in the centre of the base, and signifies the following: Black: Ball until 1918; Purple: Ball after 1918; Blue: Incendiary: Orange: Explosive, including PSA; Red: Tracer.
During the 1939-45 war, station armourers needed a more instant way of identifying special ammunition. The method adopted was to colour the tips of the bullets, the code being as follows: Blue tip: some marks of incendiary; White tip: air-to-air short-range day tracer; Grey tip: air-to-air short-range night tracer; Black tip: observation bullet; No colour: ball.
Head Stamps
Each manufacturer was given a code to be used on the head stamp on the base of the round. The main makers were: BE - ROF Blackpole (1939-45), CP - Crompton Parkinson, E - Eley, FN - Fabrique Nationale, K - Kynock (ICI) - at various factories (K2, K3, K4 K5), RG - ROF Radway Green, RL and RG - Royal Laboratory Woolich, RW - Rudge Whitworth, SR - ROF Spennymore. Bullet types were also shown on the head stamps, as: AA - PSA or Pomeroy, B - Buckingham explosive, F - semi-armour piercing, G -SPG tracer, K - Brock incendiary, R - Explosive from 1918, T or G - Tracer, W - armour-piercing, Z - Nitrocellulose propellent after 1917. Ball ammunition was stamped VII with no letter.
Whilst excellent on his subject, like many authors the details of ammunition seem to taken a second place. That list mixes First and Second War manufacturers and codes. For example, Eley (E) and Rudge Whitworth (RW) only ever manufactured ammunition to 1918 and FN never made ammunition for British service until the Grenade Blank H Mark 7 in 1950.
Also, the "A.A." code was only used briefly at the end of WWI and the "O" code for Observation was never an Air Service store, it was purely intended for Land Service training by Vickers gunners. I could go on, but in fact the whole list is a mismash of incorrect information with respect to Browning guns in WW2.
My final point is an admittedly personal one. I do not like the metrification of things that were originally in Imperial measurements. There is nothing wrong with using the metric system today, but the British service cartridge was the .303 inch, it was not the 7.7mm. That was used by the Japanese and Italians. Similar comments apply to the .50 Browning, in WW2 it was not the 12.7mm.
I would be happy to post photographs of all the actual rounds that were used in RAF Brownings should any members be interested.
Regards
TonyE
k9kiwi posted the following extracts fro Wallace Clark's books on RAF armament:
Identification of 7.7 mm (0.303 in) ammunition used in the Browning and Vickers K.
Service ammunition is identified in several ways, viz:
1. Labels on the container; 2. A code stamped on the base of the cartridge case; 3. Coloured dye on the annulus of the round (centre of the base); and 4. Colouring of the bullet tip (1939-1945)
The base marking gives the main details. These consist of: A. Code initials of manufacturer; B. Year of manufacture; C. Type of propellent (usually only Z for nitrocellulose); D. Mark of cartridge; and E. Type of bullet. The annulus colour code is found in the centre of the base, and signifies the following: Black: Ball until 1918; Purple: Ball after 1918; Blue: Incendiary: Orange: Explosive, including PSA; Red: Tracer.
During the 1939-45 war, station armourers needed a more instant way of identifying special ammunition. The method adopted was to colour the tips of the bullets, the code being as follows: Blue tip: some marks of incendiary; White tip: air-to-air short-range day tracer; Grey tip: air-to-air short-range night tracer; Black tip: observation bullet; No colour: ball.
Head Stamps
Each manufacturer was given a code to be used on the head stamp on the base of the round. The main makers were: BE - ROF Blackpole (1939-45), CP - Crompton Parkinson, E - Eley, FN - Fabrique Nationale, K - Kynock (ICI) - at various factories (K2, K3, K4 K5), RG - ROF Radway Green, RL and RG - Royal Laboratory Woolich, RW - Rudge Whitworth, SR - ROF Spennymore. Bullet types were also shown on the head stamps, as: AA - PSA or Pomeroy, B - Buckingham explosive, F - semi-armour piercing, G -SPG tracer, K - Brock incendiary, R - Explosive from 1918, T or G - Tracer, W - armour-piercing, Z - Nitrocellulose propellent after 1917. Ball ammunition was stamped VII with no letter.
Whilst excellent on his subject, like many authors the details of ammunition seem to taken a second place. That list mixes First and Second War manufacturers and codes. For example, Eley (E) and Rudge Whitworth (RW) only ever manufactured ammunition to 1918 and FN never made ammunition for British service until the Grenade Blank H Mark 7 in 1950.
Also, the "A.A." code was only used briefly at the end of WWI and the "O" code for Observation was never an Air Service store, it was purely intended for Land Service training by Vickers gunners. I could go on, but in fact the whole list is a mismash of incorrect information with respect to Browning guns in WW2.
My final point is an admittedly personal one. I do not like the metrification of things that were originally in Imperial measurements. There is nothing wrong with using the metric system today, but the British service cartridge was the .303 inch, it was not the 7.7mm. That was used by the Japanese and Italians. Similar comments apply to the .50 Browning, in WW2 it was not the 12.7mm.
I would be happy to post photographs of all the actual rounds that were used in RAF Brownings should any members be interested.
Regards
TonyE
A4K
Brigadier General
Onto this 'a little' late..(ahem...) - but GREAT thread mate! Will come in handy in the not too distant future....
Mmmm.. I am sure Wallace Clark is excellent on the technical details of the turrets given his background, but his section on .303 inch ammunition is very poor and full of errors, mainly confusing WWI period ammunition types and makers with WWII ones. I will post corrections later when I have more time.
Regards
TonyE
Regards
TonyE
A4K
Brigadier General
I'd be keen to see that Tony.
As I said in the previous post, most of the errors arise from confusing WWI production with WW2 production.
When W-C lists the ammunition for use in Browning and Vickers K guns he is talking about the period from say, 1935 to 1945. Some of the points that need correction are:
Primer annulus colour:
Black for ball pre 1918 - this is not so. Although this was proposed at one point late in WW2 it was never implemented. All ball ammo prior to 1918 had no annulus colour.
Orange for PSA - By this time PSA incendiary ammunition was long obsolete and was not used after 1918 (and never had an orange annulus)
Black bullet tip for Observation ammunition - Observation was never an air service store. It was only used for training ground machine gunners.
Among the manufacturers' codes he lists for this period are:
Eley - not used after 1918 as Eley had been absorbed into Explosive Trades Ltd. in 1919.
FN - Only ever made ammunition for the British service after 1950, and then only grenade discharging cartridges.
RW, Rudge Whitworth - only made .303 ammunition 1916-1918
RG RL for Woolwich - ROF Woolwich only used "RL"" and "RG" only used by ROF Radway Green.
Similarly with headstamp codes for the various loads:
AA for PSA ammunition - long obsolete by this time
B Buckingham explosive - pedantic, but Buckingham ammunition was a phophorus incendiary tracer, not explosive.
F Semi-armour piercing - Not used for .303 inch ammunition in UK. (one smal batch made in South Africa only)
K for Brock - Like PSA long obsolete.
R for explosive - Although developed explosive ammunition was never issued for air service in this period.
T for tracer - not used after 1917
All small points I know, but important in a work that is accepted as definitive information.
May I immodestly add that my own book on identification of British service .303 inch ammunition contains full details of all the above!
Regards
TonyE
When W-C lists the ammunition for use in Browning and Vickers K guns he is talking about the period from say, 1935 to 1945. Some of the points that need correction are:
Primer annulus colour:
Black for ball pre 1918 - this is not so. Although this was proposed at one point late in WW2 it was never implemented. All ball ammo prior to 1918 had no annulus colour.
Orange for PSA - By this time PSA incendiary ammunition was long obsolete and was not used after 1918 (and never had an orange annulus)
Black bullet tip for Observation ammunition - Observation was never an air service store. It was only used for training ground machine gunners.
Among the manufacturers' codes he lists for this period are:
Eley - not used after 1918 as Eley had been absorbed into Explosive Trades Ltd. in 1919.
FN - Only ever made ammunition for the British service after 1950, and then only grenade discharging cartridges.
RW, Rudge Whitworth - only made .303 ammunition 1916-1918
RG RL for Woolwich - ROF Woolwich only used "RL"" and "RG" only used by ROF Radway Green.
Similarly with headstamp codes for the various loads:
AA for PSA ammunition - long obsolete by this time
B Buckingham explosive - pedantic, but Buckingham ammunition was a phophorus incendiary tracer, not explosive.
F Semi-armour piercing - Not used for .303 inch ammunition in UK. (one smal batch made in South Africa only)
K for Brock - Like PSA long obsolete.
R for explosive - Although developed explosive ammunition was never issued for air service in this period.
T for tracer - not used after 1917
All small points I know, but important in a work that is accepted as definitive information.
May I immodestly add that my own book on identification of British service .303 inch ammunition contains full details of all the above!
Regards
TonyE
A4K
Brigadier General
Cheers for the info Tony! Agree totally too - if something is to be lauded as accurate, then it must be correct!
