The Italian Guns.
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
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claidemore
Senior Airman
For many years now I've had a personal moratorium on ethnically based jokes. So I mean no disrespect to those of Italian ancestry, but ......I did find this one kinda funny. It's a goldieoldie.
Apparently a surplus dealer had a good quantity of used Italian guns for sale. Story was that they were in very good condition, never been fired, only dropped once.
Apparently a surplus dealer had a good quantity of used Italian guns for sale. Story was that they were in very good condition, never been fired, only dropped once.
red admiral
Senior Airman
- 479
- Mar 24, 2005
And you know all my my topics are excellent so...
Excellent, I'm looking forwards to this one.
For many years now I've had a personal moratorium on ethnically based jokes. So I mean no disrespect to those of Italian ancestry, but ......I did find this one kinda funny. It's a goldieoldie.
Apparently a surplus dealer had a good quantity of used Italian guns for sale. Story was that they were in very good condition, never been fired, only dropped once.
Va fangoule!
B-17engineer
Colonel
Since my parents are mostly Italian heritage I know what that means Cosmiso!! haha 
For many years now I've had a personal moratorium on ethnically based jokes. So I mean no disrespect to those of Italian ancestry, but ......I did find this one kinda funny. It's a goldieoldie.
Apparently a surplus dealer had a good quantity of used Italian guns for sale. Story was that they were in very good condition, never been fired, only dropped once.
An oldie and a goodie. Italian war jokes, there are tons of them.
- Thread starter
- #8
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thank you both. By the way my grandmother left Genoa at the age of ten so we are pretty much in the same boat here.
The FIAT M1928.
The Fabrica Italiana Automobile Torino ( italian Torino car factory) is one of the Europes biggest car industries and it was in the ww1 one of Italy main suppliers of ground based and aviation machineguns, mostly the design of Revelli.
After the great war the FIAT created in 1926 a subsidiary devoted exclusively to the machineguns, that was the Societa Anonima Fabrica Armi Torino, or anonymous society Torino guns factory, mostly know as its abreviated S.A.F.A.T designation.
The first aircraft machinegun produced by the S.A.F.A.T was the M1928, this is a scaled up variant of the infantry light M1926, with a belt fed and increased rate of fire.
However its main change was the adoption of the 8 mm Fiat cartrigde instead the usual M1891 6,5 mm ammunition.
Worth to mention that the "8mm FIAT" designation was in fact a fancy name for the 7,7x56R, no other than the british .303 cartrigde, both types were completely interchangeable.
The M1928 was installed in some biplane fighters of the late 1920s and early 1930s, but proven unrealible ( sometimes the case was fractured and parts remains left in the chamber !) and very difficult to synchronizate so it was replaced by the better Breda designs.
Fiat S.A.F.A.T M1928.
Caliber: 8 mm Fiat.
Type of action: mechanically delayed blowback.
Charging: manually by wire.
Rate of fire: no less than 720 rpm.
Lenght: 1250 mm
Weight: 16.5 kg unloded
Muzzle velocity: 745 mps.
- Thread starter
- #9
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
parsifal
Colonel
Charles
very interseting.....where were these guns used? And wuldnt having yet another ammunition type only add to the quartermasters misery???
very interseting.....where were these guns used? And wuldnt having yet another ammunition type only add to the quartermasters misery???
- Thread starter
- #11
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The M1928 was put in a few Fiat CR 20 biplane fighters.
I dont think they had a lot of troubles with the ammo supply of 6,5 and 7,7mm, the italians already have the .303 in use because they purchased several Vickers aircraft guns in WW1.
Is a logical step to discard the 6,5mm ammunition in aircraft weapon, because is really weak, think that in order to bring down an aircraft with a
.303 machinegun you need a lot of bullets...now just try to calculate how many hits you need with a 6,5 mm mg.
Aniway by 1931 the 6,5mm was used just by the army, the Air force used only 7,7mm and 12,7 mm cartrigdes, so the ammunition problem was pretty much over.
6,5 x 52 - MUNICION.ORG
I dont think they had a lot of troubles with the ammo supply of 6,5 and 7,7mm, the italians already have the .303 in use because they purchased several Vickers aircraft guns in WW1.
Is a logical step to discard the 6,5mm ammunition in aircraft weapon, because is really weak, think that in order to bring down an aircraft with a
.303 machinegun you need a lot of bullets...now just try to calculate how many hits you need with a 6,5 mm mg.
Aniway by 1931 the 6,5mm was used just by the army, the Air force used only 7,7mm and 12,7 mm cartrigdes, so the ammunition problem was pretty much over.
6,5 x 52 - MUNICION.ORG
- Thread starter
- #12
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm MG.
The italian air force was by late 1920 clearly aware of the limitations of its late Fiat designed Mgs, in order to solve that problem it launched a specification for a new aircraft machinegun in 1929.
Both Fiat and the Brescia based Breda factory responded the requeriments. but breda 7,7mm machinegun with Browning type of action proven more reliable and lighter.
Disapointed with its failure to provide to the goverment the FIAT sold it weapons manufacture subsidiary to Breda. For that point and onwards the Breda aircrat machineguns were designated as Breda S.A.F.A.T guns.
The Breda SAFAT 7,7 mm was a disintegrable link, belt fed, air cooled and recoil operated machinegun. After the trigger is depressed bolt and barrel recoiled togheter for 11 mm, then the bolt is disingaged by a cam milled in the receiver, opening the chamber, extracting, introducing a fresh cartrigde and repeating all the cycle again.
The gun fired at closed bolt and with a lighter firing pin that the Brownings types, so it was very suitable for synchronizated mountings. Pneumatic charging was provided for wings mounting and some fuselage emplacements.
It was also very popular as defensive machinegun in bombers and recce airplanes ip to 1942
Wing mounting in attack aircraft Breda Ba 65.
Wing mounting, Reggiane RE 2001.
The italian air force was by late 1920 clearly aware of the limitations of its late Fiat designed Mgs, in order to solve that problem it launched a specification for a new aircraft machinegun in 1929.
Both Fiat and the Brescia based Breda factory responded the requeriments. but breda 7,7mm machinegun with Browning type of action proven more reliable and lighter.
Disapointed with its failure to provide to the goverment the FIAT sold it weapons manufacture subsidiary to Breda. For that point and onwards the Breda aircrat machineguns were designated as Breda S.A.F.A.T guns.
The Breda SAFAT 7,7 mm was a disintegrable link, belt fed, air cooled and recoil operated machinegun. After the trigger is depressed bolt and barrel recoiled togheter for 11 mm, then the bolt is disingaged by a cam milled in the receiver, opening the chamber, extracting, introducing a fresh cartrigde and repeating all the cycle again.
The gun fired at closed bolt and with a lighter firing pin that the Brownings types, so it was very suitable for synchronizated mountings. Pneumatic charging was provided for wings mounting and some fuselage emplacements.
It was also very popular as defensive machinegun in bombers and recce airplanes ip to 1942
Wing mounting in attack aircraft Breda Ba 65.
Wing mounting, Reggiane RE 2001.
Attachments
- Thread starter
- #13
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Two views of the Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm side defensive emplacements in Fiat RS 14 recce seaplane. Note the neat layout wich included a roof mounted magazine and alluminium container for spent belt links.
- Thread starter
- #15
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
That is the idea, to post unseen pictures Thank you.
Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7mm in defensive turret, Breda Ba 88.
Characteristics Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 7,7 mm
Caliber : 7,7 mm Breda ( 7,7 x 56R)
Type of action: short recoil, mascheroni muzzle booster.
Rate of fire: 800-820 rpm ( 650-680 rpm in synchronizated emplacements)
Lenght: 1190 mm
weight 12,5 kg.
Thank you.Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7mm in defensive turret, Breda Ba 88.
Characteristics Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 7,7 mm
Caliber : 7,7 mm Breda ( 7,7 x 56R)
Type of action: short recoil, mascheroni muzzle booster.
Rate of fire: 800-820 rpm ( 650-680 rpm in synchronizated emplacements)
Lenght: 1190 mm
weight 12,5 kg.
- Thread starter
- #16
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Scotti M1932 cal 7,7 mm.
The other rifle caliber machinegun used by the Regia Aeronautica was the Scotti gun. The designation is after its designer Alfredo Scotti, however the machinegun was actually manufactured by Isotta-Fraschini, an industrial consortium wich also made luxury cars and aero engines.
Mechanism in the Scotti was operated by gas, with a rotating bolt head for breech operation. The gun fires at open bolt and with higher rate of fire than the Breda SAFAT of the same calibre.
The open bolt system did not qualify for synchronizated mounting so the Scotti was almost exclusively used in flexible defensive emplacements.
2 views of waist 7,7 mm defensive Scotti MG emplacements in Bomber CANT Z 1007.
The other rifle caliber machinegun used by the Regia Aeronautica was the Scotti gun. The designation is after its designer Alfredo Scotti, however the machinegun was actually manufactured by Isotta-Fraschini, an industrial consortium wich also made luxury cars and aero engines.
Mechanism in the Scotti was operated by gas, with a rotating bolt head for breech operation. The gun fires at open bolt and with higher rate of fire than the Breda SAFAT of the same calibre.
The open bolt system did not qualify for synchronizated mounting so the Scotti was almost exclusively used in flexible defensive emplacements.
2 views of waist 7,7 mm defensive Scotti MG emplacements in Bomber CANT Z 1007.
Attachments
- Thread starter
- #17
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thanks for the "sticky"
Your welcome!!!
- Thread starter
- #19
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
You are a man that can recognize quality.8)
7,7mm x 56R cartrigdes for Breda, Scotti and FIAT light MG.
Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (al fosforo)
API steel core bullet with phosphor, 12 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 750 mps. Armor penetration 7 mm at 150 meters.
Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (alla termite)
API ammunition with explosive filling . 11,8 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 755 mps.
7,7 Breda da osservazione
Observation round, actually an explosive with nose fuse, this is more or less a italian version of the B-patrone used by the Luftwaffe.
7,7 Breda tracciante luminosa.
A full metal jacket bullet with very bright tracer in base for day use. Muzzle velocity 760mps.
7,7mm x 56R cartrigdes for Breda, Scotti and FIAT light MG.
Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (al fosforo)
API steel core bullet with phosphor, 12 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 750 mps. Armor penetration 7 mm at 150 meters.
Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (alla termite)
API ammunition with explosive filling . 11,8 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 755 mps.
7,7 Breda da osservazione
Observation round, actually an explosive with nose fuse, this is more or less a italian version of the B-patrone used by the Luftwaffe.
7,7 Breda tracciante luminosa.
A full metal jacket bullet with very bright tracer in base for day use. Muzzle velocity 760mps.
