Antitank Rifles and MGs. 1930-1945.
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
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- Thread starter
- #22
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Why not, it must be a lot of fun shooting those, specially the big 20s 8)
Antitank rifles of the USSR (I)
In the early 1930s the russian began the develpment of a heavy machinegun caliber to provide the infantry some means to combat armored vehicles. Following a similar path of the Germans with the 13mm T.u.F and the americans with the 12,7x99mm (. 50 BMG) they selected a 12,7 caliber round placed in a 108 mm long case.
This cartrigde entered in service in with the heavy MG Degtyarev-Shpagin Dshk-38. At the same time several arms designers were put in charge to develop a new antitank rifle to use this round.
One of the first was the PTR Schcholochowa in 1938.
The weapon was very simple, it was more or less a copy of the WW1 Mauser tankgewehr, a manually operated bolt action rifle with 1,61 m long. It incorporates a single chamber muzzle brake and 2 round fixed magazine.
The muzzle velocity of the 12,7 russian is some 820 m/s and the armor piercing round B-30 defeat 3/4 inches of rolled plate (19mm) at 200 meters.
Some other designs were summited to the Soviet army, however in 1940 the soviet military observers became very worried about the relatively quick victory of the german army in France, since they were well aware of the armor thickness of the French tanks.
Seeing the destroyed Chars 2 bis and Somuas in the german newsreel they tough the germans had heavily up-armored his panzers.
In this way any desing based in the 12,7x108 caliber was quickly dropped, a more powerful, heavier round was needed.
Antitank rifles of the USSR (I)
In the early 1930s the russian began the develpment of a heavy machinegun caliber to provide the infantry some means to combat armored vehicles. Following a similar path of the Germans with the 13mm T.u.F and the americans with the 12,7x99mm (. 50 BMG) they selected a 12,7 caliber round placed in a 108 mm long case.
This cartrigde entered in service in with the heavy MG Degtyarev-Shpagin Dshk-38. At the same time several arms designers were put in charge to develop a new antitank rifle to use this round.
One of the first was the PTR Schcholochowa in 1938.
The weapon was very simple, it was more or less a copy of the WW1 Mauser tankgewehr, a manually operated bolt action rifle with 1,61 m long. It incorporates a single chamber muzzle brake and 2 round fixed magazine.
The muzzle velocity of the 12,7 russian is some 820 m/s and the armor piercing round B-30 defeat 3/4 inches of rolled plate (19mm) at 200 meters.
Some other designs were summited to the Soviet army, however in 1940 the soviet military observers became very worried about the relatively quick victory of the german army in France, since they were well aware of the armor thickness of the French tanks.
Seeing the destroyed Chars 2 bis and Somuas in the german newsreel they tough the germans had heavily up-armored his panzers.
In this way any desing based in the 12,7x108 caliber was quickly dropped, a more powerful, heavier round was needed.
rogthedodge
Airman 1st Class
- 155
- May 9, 2007
I always though it was Boyes but Boys seems to be correct.
I saw you could fire one at some event in the UK but it was £5 a round!!!
Apologies if you've seen this but here's a site dedicated to AT rifles
UK Canadian
BTW Check out the Irish soldiers with 'German' helmets - very strange!
I saw you could fire one at some event in the UK but it was £5 a round!!!
Apologies if you've seen this but here's a site dedicated to AT rifles
UK Canadian
BTW Check out the Irish soldiers with 'German' helmets - very strange!
- Thread starter
- #24
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thanks, I going to give a look.
- Thread starter
- #25
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Aditional images of the Degtyarev PTRD
Recoil operated chamber opening.
PTRD in the move:
Size:
Shooter-loader team.
As AAA weapon.
The bullet B-32, 1000 meters per second muzzle speed, penetration 30mm armor at 150 meters.
Recoil operated chamber opening.
PTRD in the move:
Size:
Shooter-loader team.
As AAA weapon.
The bullet B-32, 1000 meters per second muzzle speed, penetration 30mm armor at 150 meters.
- Thread starter
- #26
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The PTRS and PTRD was also tried as a makeshift heavy sniper adding PU 3x scopes.
The extremely heavy recoil wasnt healty for the sight calibration.
The extremely heavy recoil wasnt healty for the sight calibration.
- Thread starter
- #27
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
PTRS and PTRD in action:
Some translation of russian sources:
ÏÐÎÒÈÂÎÑÒÎßÍÈÅ: Áèòâà ïîä Ìîñêâîé - Ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûå ðóæüÿ
Another use for the 14,5 mm guns. In this Ferdinad pictured in Kursk,the soviet infantrymen try to break the tracks with his rifles.
Some translation of russian sources:
ÏÐÎÒÈÂÎÑÒÎßÍÈÅ: Áèòâà ïîä Ìîñêâîé - Ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûå ðóæüÿ
Another use for the 14,5 mm guns. In this Ferdinad pictured in Kursk,the soviet infantrymen try to break the tracks with his rifles.
- Thread starter
- #28
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Kawamura Type 97 cal. 20 mm
Most japanese small arms of ww2 are not know for his excellent characteristics, however this antitank rifle probed to be a sound and reliable weapon.
The desing of this heavy antitank rifle belong to the ing. Masawa Kawamura who start the development in 1935.
For 1937 the desing was completed and the weapon was officially adopted for the army in 1937 ( some were bought for the Navy also). The working mechanism of this rifle is semiautomatic with an rotating bolt wich is gas operated. The loading is made from the top (bren like) and in accept an 7 shot magazine.
The weight is about 55 kg , in order to carry it quickly 2 handlebars resembleming a bike could be atached in the front and the rear pad. For aditional protection in the shooting and 4 mm steel shield can be added, in this case the weight climbs to 66 kg.
The weapon is very powerful, it shoots a 20mm ( 20 mm round x125mm case) specially designed cartrigde, the muzzle velocity is about 835 m/s and is stated that it could penetrate the light M-3 stuart from 150 meters away.
In 1943 the rifle was reworked to spare raw materials lowering the weight with handles to 59 kg.
The crew of one rifle was 4 men, gunner, loader, 2 ammunition carrier. A sqad consisted of two rifle teams, 1 squad leader (NCO) and 1 runner.
During transport the rifle was disassembled in two parts and carried by three horses with 150 shots. With cavalry units the rifle was loaded on 2 horses with 105 shots to increase mobility.
The type 97 ap-round wit a muzzle velocity of 865 m/sec could penetrate 30 mm/90° on 350 m and 20 mm/90° on 700 m. Additionally the type 98 20 X125mm he-round could be fired against soft targets like field fortifications etc. The main charge was HMX and Nitropenta. Maximum range with the type 98 round was 4000 m.
Most japanese small arms of ww2 are not know for his excellent characteristics, however this antitank rifle probed to be a sound and reliable weapon.
The desing of this heavy antitank rifle belong to the ing. Masawa Kawamura who start the development in 1935.
For 1937 the desing was completed and the weapon was officially adopted for the army in 1937 ( some were bought for the Navy also). The working mechanism of this rifle is semiautomatic with an rotating bolt wich is gas operated. The loading is made from the top (bren like) and in accept an 7 shot magazine.
The weight is about 55 kg , in order to carry it quickly 2 handlebars resembleming a bike could be atached in the front and the rear pad. For aditional protection in the shooting and 4 mm steel shield can be added, in this case the weight climbs to 66 kg.
The weapon is very powerful, it shoots a 20mm ( 20 mm round x125mm case) specially designed cartrigde, the muzzle velocity is about 835 m/s and is stated that it could penetrate the light M-3 stuart from 150 meters away.
In 1943 the rifle was reworked to spare raw materials lowering the weight with handles to 59 kg.
The crew of one rifle was 4 men, gunner, loader, 2 ammunition carrier. A sqad consisted of two rifle teams, 1 squad leader (NCO) and 1 runner.
During transport the rifle was disassembled in two parts and carried by three horses with 150 shots. With cavalry units the rifle was loaded on 2 horses with 105 shots to increase mobility.
The type 97 ap-round wit a muzzle velocity of 865 m/sec could penetrate 30 mm/90° on 350 m and 20 mm/90° on 700 m. Additionally the type 98 20 X125mm he-round could be fired against soft targets like field fortifications etc. The main charge was HMX and Nitropenta. Maximum range with the type 98 round was 4000 m.
- Thread starter
- #29
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The 20 mm Lahti L-39 antitank rifle:
The design and production of a domestic anti-tank rifle for the Finnish Army was delayed in the late 1930s by doubts and differences of opinion over which caliber to adopt. Initially a 13 mm caliber was the favorite alternative but in 1939 a decision was also reached to also construct two 20 mm weapons for tests in mid 1939.
The design work was given to Aimo Lahti who had two 20 mm prototypes produced during the
summer. They were then tested. Theoretically, the difference of muzzle velocity and penetration between the 13 mm and 20 mm wasn't big, but the 20 mm round had superior fragmentation
effect when it penetrated the armor.
After the Winter War
Later on, the L-39 received improvements e.g. night sights, AA-sights and a targeting scope.
In the attack phase in 1941 the 20 mm round proved to be too weak against most types of tanks. As the L-39 proved to be a very accurate weapon it was often used to destroy enemy gun positions, mg-nests etc. at long range.
Beginning on 1944, the L-39 was also used against the armored ground attack planes. A new pillar mount was designed and the rifle was fitted with extra recoil spring and a fixed striker for full automatic operation. This full automatic AA-weapon was designated as L-39/44.
Antitank weapons used by the Finns in Winter War, Part 2
Aditional Pictures:
A happy US citizen with his Lahti, ( you better dont have an argument with him
)
The design and production of a domestic anti-tank rifle for the Finnish Army was delayed in the late 1930s by doubts and differences of opinion over which caliber to adopt. Initially a 13 mm caliber was the favorite alternative but in 1939 a decision was also reached to also construct two 20 mm weapons for tests in mid 1939.
The design work was given to Aimo Lahti who had two 20 mm prototypes produced during the
summer. They were then tested. Theoretically, the difference of muzzle velocity and penetration between the 13 mm and 20 mm wasn't big, but the 20 mm round had superior fragmentation
effect when it penetrated the armor.
On August 11th 1939, the L-39 performed well, fulfilling all requirements, and on the basis of these superior results the 20 mm weapon was selected and further development of the 13 mm rifle was
dropped.
On September 6th, 1939, General Heinrichs finally proposed that the production of this good weapon should start immediately.
dropped.
On September 6th, 1939, General Heinrichs finally proposed that the production of this good weapon should start immediately.
Before the production of the weapon was started, the Winter War broke out, as the Soviet Red Army attacked on November 30th, 1939. The two L-39 prototypes were first used on the Isthmus front*, near the Lake Ladoga. The weapons were issued to the AT-platoon of JR 28, and the platoon was subordinate to Os.Metsäpirtti (detachment Metsäpirtti), which was part of the delaying / covering troops of the Rautu (R-) group. The two prototype weapons were used with great success against the light Soviet tanks, and the weapon was reported to be effective at ranges of up to 400 metres
* Source "Marskin Panssarintuhoajat" by E.Käkelä. Some other sources say that they were used in Ladoga Karelia 2 men were required to carry this weapon off road. During winter, a sledge was used, and on road marches a vehicle was used if available.
After the Winter War
Later on, the L-39 received improvements e.g. night sights, AA-sights and a targeting scope.
In the attack phase in 1941 the 20 mm round proved to be too weak against most types of tanks. As the L-39 proved to be a very accurate weapon it was often used to destroy enemy gun positions, mg-nests etc. at long range.
Beginning on 1944, the L-39 was also used against the armored ground attack planes. A new pillar mount was designed and the rifle was fitted with extra recoil spring and a fixed striker for full automatic operation. This full automatic AA-weapon was designated as L-39/44.
Antitank weapons used by the Finns in Winter War, Part 2
Aditional Pictures:
A happy US citizen with his Lahti, ( you better dont have an argument with him
)- Thread starter
- #30
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The Lahti 20mm firing high explosive against a steel plate 14mm thick, 9/16 " for imperial measure lovers.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO0xRZWtRjM
L-39/44 full auto AAA variant of the L-39.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO0xRZWtRjM
L-39/44 full auto AAA variant of the L-39.
- Thread starter
- #31
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Two not very high quality but interesting nevertheless images of the actual deployment of the Pzb 39, in France by ciclist troops and Russia.
Source: Waffen Arsenal Nº140: Deutsche Panzernahbekämpfungsmittel 1917-1945
Source: Waffen Arsenal Nº140: Deutsche Panzernahbekämpfungsmittel 1917-1945
- Thread starter
- #32
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Czech antitank rifle zk-382
A real monster. calibre 7,92 mm x 145 , Muzzle velocity ...1320 m/s,
that gave an amazing capable to break any german tank in service in 1939-41
The rifle use the "bullpup" configuration, is a manually bolt lock operated and seems to be loaded with 5 rounds clip.
Unfortunately I havent a picture of the muzzle but there must be some kind of muzzle brake there.
A real monster. calibre 7,92 mm x 145 , Muzzle velocity ...1320 m/s,
that gave an amazing capable to break any german tank in service in 1939-41
The rifle use the "bullpup" configuration, is a manually bolt lock operated and seems to be loaded with 5 rounds clip.
Unfortunately I havent a picture of the muzzle but there must be some kind of muzzle brake there.
B-17engineer
Colonel
Rheinmetall also made guns for fighters such as Bf-109 etc.
- Thread starter
- #35
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The Solothurn was actually more or less a subsidiary of Rheinmetall so the relation was close.
I have an extensive topic about RB aircraft guns in the technical section.
Panzerbüchse Modell SS 41.
This rifle was another semiautomatic Patrone 318 rifle, but in this case the design was not a reply from the Waffen Amt of the Heer (German Army) but to the SS Wafen academy in Brünn (Brno Czech republic).
Czechs working for the Waffen SS employed as a base several rifles already produced for the Czech army in the Interwar periods, those already used the advanced bullpup configuration, this means the magazine below the trigger and with part of the mechanism embeded in the shoulder stock.
The PB. SS 41 rifle works with the recoil forces and had a rotating bolt head to lock the chamber.
This entirely Czech design was manufactured by the Swiss Solothurn firm in 1941-42 (probably in order to avoid sabotage)
It used a side mounted 10 round magazine and the total lenght of the M ss Pzb 41 was 1360 mm (1100mm barrel). The muzzle was equipped with a single chamber brake in order to reduce felt recoil, the max rate of fire ( all according to SS officers) were 70 rpm and the practical about the half of that figure.
Detail of the side mounted magazine and safety knob.
I have an extensive topic about RB aircraft guns in the technical section.
Panzerbüchse Modell SS 41.
This rifle was another semiautomatic Patrone 318 rifle, but in this case the design was not a reply from the Waffen Amt of the Heer (German Army) but to the SS Wafen academy in Brünn (Brno Czech republic).
Czechs working for the Waffen SS employed as a base several rifles already produced for the Czech army in the Interwar periods, those already used the advanced bullpup configuration, this means the magazine below the trigger and with part of the mechanism embeded in the shoulder stock.
The PB. SS 41 rifle works with the recoil forces and had a rotating bolt head to lock the chamber.
This entirely Czech design was manufactured by the Swiss Solothurn firm in 1941-42 (probably in order to avoid sabotage)
It used a side mounted 10 round magazine and the total lenght of the M ss Pzb 41 was 1360 mm (1100mm barrel). The muzzle was equipped with a single chamber brake in order to reduce felt recoil, the max rate of fire ( all according to SS officers) were 70 rpm and the practical about the half of that figure.
Detail of the side mounted magazine and safety knob.
- Thread starter
- #36
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Aditional images of the Pzb SS 41.
Bolt fully back. In here is also possible to apreciate the tilt angle in the side mounted magazine.
Shoulder rest.
Rear sight, max regulation 500 meters.
Bolt fully back. In here is also possible to apreciate the tilt angle in the side mounted magazine.
Shoulder rest.
Rear sight, max regulation 500 meters.
- Thread starter
- #37
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The Karabiner K-98 as antitank weapon.
The main weapon of the german infantry, The 98K, could be also used as antitank , or better said antiarmor when coupled with the firing cup "schiessbecher" ( wich literally means something like shooting baker) the SchB was originally designed as a high explosive fragmentation grenade launcher for antipersonnel purposes. Starting In 1940 a special family of shaped charge grenades were introduced for fighting armor.
The Schiessbecher was basically a short rifled barrel with a caliber of 30mm and a length of 25cm. It weighed 0.75kg and was attached to the bore of the rifle. A rather complicated aiming device was mounted to the left of the original sights and allowed for aiming ranges of up to 300m. Usually this device was trown away in the field and replaced by the rear sight or other "guesstimates" means to aim. the grenade s body reproduced a negative of the SchB rifling so that allowed a spin stabilized flight towards the target.
The first type of AT ammunition used was the Gewehrpanzergranate 30, a slim hollow charge grenade that fit into the SchB.
Gw.Pz.gr 30 squematic
Due the small bursting charge and lack of penetration this was replaced in late 1942 by the Gross Gewehrpanzergranate with a 5 cm warhead and 390 grams in total weight. The quoted penetration of the Gw Pz Gr Gross is 80 mm, teorically allowing to destroy or at list penetrate most of tanks in service up to 1944.
All the rifle grenades were propelled by a 7,92x57 treisspatrone, special blank.
Muzzle velocity was about 70-90 mps and range 100-200 m.
loading the GW Pz Gr 30
SchB with the Gross Pz grenate fit.
The main weapon of the german infantry, The 98K, could be also used as antitank , or better said antiarmor when coupled with the firing cup "schiessbecher" ( wich literally means something like shooting baker) the SchB was originally designed as a high explosive fragmentation grenade launcher for antipersonnel purposes. Starting In 1940 a special family of shaped charge grenades were introduced for fighting armor.
The Schiessbecher was basically a short rifled barrel with a caliber of 30mm and a length of 25cm. It weighed 0.75kg and was attached to the bore of the rifle. A rather complicated aiming device was mounted to the left of the original sights and allowed for aiming ranges of up to 300m. Usually this device was trown away in the field and replaced by the rear sight or other "guesstimates" means to aim. the grenade s body reproduced a negative of the SchB rifling so that allowed a spin stabilized flight towards the target.
The first type of AT ammunition used was the Gewehrpanzergranate 30, a slim hollow charge grenade that fit into the SchB.
Gw.Pz.gr 30 squematic
Due the small bursting charge and lack of penetration this was replaced in late 1942 by the Gross Gewehrpanzergranate with a 5 cm warhead and 390 grams in total weight. The quoted penetration of the Gw Pz Gr Gross is 80 mm, teorically allowing to destroy or at list penetrate most of tanks in service up to 1944.
All the rifle grenades were propelled by a 7,92x57 treisspatrone, special blank.
Muzzle velocity was about 70-90 mps and range 100-200 m.
loading the GW Pz Gr 30
SchB with the Gross Pz grenate fit.
Attachments
Hi Charles,
>the firing cup "schiessbecher" ( wich literally means something like shooting baker)
Actually, it literally means "shooting cup"
LEO Results for "Becher"
>7,92x57 treisspatrone
Probably "Treibpatrone" ('driving cartridge')?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>the firing cup "schiessbecher" ( wich literally means something like shooting baker)
Actually, it literally means "shooting cup"
LEO Results for "Becher"
>7,92x57 treisspatrone
Probably "Treibpatrone" ('driving cartridge')?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
- Thread starter
- #39
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Oh, thank you, seems that my german is rusty.8)
- Thread starter
- #40
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The Karabiner K-98 as antitank weapon. (II)
Other hollow charge grenade used in the K-98 was the GGP series.
The Gewehrgranate zur Panzerbekämpfung ("rifle grenade for fighting tanks") of the company WASAG that was usually referred to under it's abbreviation GGP or GG/P, it also carried the designation GGP 40 or GG/P 40. This larger weapon's shaft could not fit into the SchB so a special spigot was attached to the muzzle in the rifle to fire it.
Over this spigot fits the hollow tail-piece of the grenade. It is fitted to the rifle, in the same manner as a bayonet, over the bayonet standard and foresight block, and is locked in position by a spring-loaded bolt. On firing the propelling cartridge, the gasses pass out of the barrel of the rifle, through the spigot, and into the hollow tail-piece to propel the grenade.
The GGP was put in service in mid 1940, weighed 520g and had a length of 23.4 cm. The warhead had a diameter of 60mm and carried a shaped charge of 175g that enabled the GGP to penetrate 40mm of armor. As it could not achieve a spin from the Schiessbecher's rifling it had to depend on six stabilizing fins attached to the rear of it's shaft for flight stabilization.
Later a longer cap was put onto the warhead that allowed for an earlier detonation of the shaped charge which increased the penetration performance to 45mm. This final production version of the GGP had a length of 29.5cm.
GGP improved
Other hollow charge grenade used in the K-98 was the GGP series.
The Gewehrgranate zur Panzerbekämpfung ("rifle grenade for fighting tanks") of the company WASAG that was usually referred to under it's abbreviation GGP or GG/P, it also carried the designation GGP 40 or GG/P 40. This larger weapon's shaft could not fit into the SchB so a special spigot was attached to the muzzle in the rifle to fire it.
Over this spigot fits the hollow tail-piece of the grenade. It is fitted to the rifle, in the same manner as a bayonet, over the bayonet standard and foresight block, and is locked in position by a spring-loaded bolt. On firing the propelling cartridge, the gasses pass out of the barrel of the rifle, through the spigot, and into the hollow tail-piece to propel the grenade.
The GGP was put in service in mid 1940, weighed 520g and had a length of 23.4 cm. The warhead had a diameter of 60mm and carried a shaped charge of 175g that enabled the GGP to penetrate 40mm of armor. As it could not achieve a spin from the Schiessbecher's rifling it had to depend on six stabilizing fins attached to the rear of it's shaft for flight stabilization.
Later a longer cap was put onto the warhead that allowed for an earlier detonation of the shaped charge which increased the penetration performance to 45mm. This final production version of the GGP had a length of 29.5cm.
GGP improved
