102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Tell me what you think
Best Rifle Of WWII
- Thread starter 102first_hussars
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lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Whats a Gerand???
p1k3man
Recruit
It´s Garand not Gerand...
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Didnt want to completely shatter his balls, just a small, swift kick to em...
- Thread starter
- #7
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
The only thing about Garand was its ammo was fed from the integral box magazine, which was probably the weakest point of the whole design which means once you put the clip into the rifle you cant take it out, which is a real problem if you have an ammo related jam, where you need to take it out.
Though the Garand was good because it enabled a squad to fire faster against the enemies usually using slower action weapons.
Though the Garand was good because it enabled a squad to fire faster against the enemies usually using slower action weapons.
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
Yeah Gewehr was spelled wrong too and Nagant. The Gewehr 43 was far and away the best technically rifle advancement to take to the field during the war. Though its cartridge like the AK 47s is a compromise in power versus reasonable packaging, both it and the semi auto Garand could produce the one thing none of the other rifle could in 1944- firepower. Bolt actions were dead by then- actually long before- and any squad with Garands versus K98s was going to come out on top period.
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Although it had a limited range the M1 carbine was a very good little weapon and when in conditions such as jungle or street warfare the lack of effective range (200 meters) was not such a problem. With the introduction of the M2 and its 30 round magazine and selective fire it was only lack of range that stopped it from being a true assault rifle.
However my choice from the rifles in the list above would be the Garand, the SMLE was a superb bolt action rifle and remained in service as a sniper rifle for many years long after the end of the war but as has been pointed out as a battle field infantry weapon it's day had gone by the 40's.
The only thing I may dispute a tad Twitch is if the US army had the Garand yet the standard issue for the German Japanese army was bolt action weapons on your assumption the Germans and Japanese forces should have been swept a side with the superiour fire power of the Garand equipped US forces.
However my choice from the rifles in the list above would be the Garand, the SMLE was a superb bolt action rifle and remained in service as a sniper rifle for many years long after the end of the war but as has been pointed out as a battle field infantry weapon it's day had gone by the 40's.
The only thing I may dispute a tad Twitch is if the US army had the Garand yet the standard issue for the German Japanese army was bolt action weapons on your assumption the Germans and Japanese forces should have been swept a side with the superiour fire power of the Garand equipped US forces.
- Thread starter
- #10
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Mind the M1 Carbine on had an efective range of about 200 yards, though in close quarter conflicts such as urban fighting is effective thats pretty much it, fighting the japanese it might have been more effective because those fights were pretty close alot of the time
schwarzpanzer
Senior Airman
- 662
- Aug 8, 2005
Hi hussars,
I'll tell you the correct spellings are; M1 Garand, Mosin Nagant, Gewehr (or Kar) 43.
- but we all know what you mean. My spelling is off too, thanks to a dodgy keyboard!
My favourite rifles of WW2 are the Stg/MP44/43/42 and the Fedorov Avtomat, but in the ones you've put, I'd go for either the Lee-Enfield or the G43.
There is a magazine eject catch on the Garand too hussars.
The G43 has the same cartridge as the K98 Twitch - I think you meant the Stg44?
Being on this forum has changed my mind about the M1 Carbine trackend, I know it has lousy combat effectiveness, but it's cheap, light, reliable and easy to use.
In cold weather though, the M1/M2 Carbine's poor penetrative power is near useless against thick clothing.
A point people forget is that the average Lee Enfield equiped infantryman had a higher RoF than one with a Garand.
A lot of the time MG's and mortars were used, and in close-in fighting SLR's aren't that great, but better than K98's and Arisakas.
Also keping cool and getting 1 good shot off is better than emptying a clip into a wall.
I'll tell you the correct spellings are; M1 Garand, Mosin Nagant, Gewehr (or Kar) 43.
- but we all know what you mean. My spelling is off too, thanks to a dodgy keyboard!
My favourite rifles of WW2 are the Stg/MP44/43/42 and the Fedorov Avtomat, but in the ones you've put, I'd go for either the Lee-Enfield or the G43.
There is a magazine eject catch on the Garand too hussars.
The G43 has the same cartridge as the K98 Twitch - I think you meant the Stg44?
Being on this forum has changed my mind about the M1 Carbine trackend, I know it has lousy combat effectiveness, but it's cheap, light, reliable and easy to use.
In cold weather though, the M1/M2 Carbine's poor penetrative power is near useless against thick clothing.
A point people forget is that the average Lee Enfield equiped infantryman had a higher RoF than one with a Garand.
A lot of the time MG's and mortars were used, and in close-in fighting SLR's aren't that great, but better than K98's and Arisakas.
Also keping cool and getting 1 good shot off is better than emptying a clip into a wall.
- Thread starter
- #12
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Yes that has been noted already, for like the third time, thank you.
Well considering the fact that this thread is about rifles, and those are sub machine guns umm yeah.
not with the Garand, the garand could not be "topped off" you had to expend the entire magazine before the clip ejected, there was no mag release locate in front of the trigger gaurd like the SMLE
Clothing? wow I dont even know how to approach this statement really
No they dont, I can tell you simply because I have fired a Lee Enfeild, anyone who joins the cadets in canada or britain will get a chance to, I can tell you though it has nice smooth action in the bolt, you wont fire faster than a guy with a gas operated semi automatic rifle with a bolt action im sorry it just doesnt happen.
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
The current world record for aimed bolt action fire was set in 1914 with a SMLE, 38 rounds into a 12" target at 300 yards in one minute. Still not bad for a BA rifle
A good rate of fire for well drilled troops was in the range of around 20 aimed RPM. My old man confirmed this figure although he started as a youngster in the home guard with a Ross, but was issued with a SMLE after he joined up. That said he preferred having his old Lewis gun fired up with its ability to pump out nearly 700 RPM which did tend to be a little more effective at keeping the Jerrys heads down.
A good rate of fire for well drilled troops was in the range of around 20 aimed RPM. My old man confirmed this figure although he started as a youngster in the home guard with a Ross, but was issued with a SMLE after he joined up. That said he preferred having his old Lewis gun fired up with its ability to pump out nearly 700 RPM which did tend to be a little more effective at keeping the Jerrys heads down.
Well I wish you could vote for 2 here. I would vote for the Gewehr 43 and the Garand.
I do like the K98 though. It is a fun rifle to shoot and very accurate. As for bolt action weapons the K98 to me is the best.
I do like the K98 though. It is a fun rifle to shoot and very accurate. As for bolt action weapons the K98 to me is the best.
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
Yeah I have a K-98 too. Great to shoot! But my contention is that as Trackend said firepower DID sweep away the Japanese and to some extent the Germans. What I said was that a squad with Garands (a firepower advantage over any bolt) would come out on top of another squad with bolt actions in the field.
The M-1 carbine is a toy in comparison to the Garand. I have both. The M-2 fully automatic didn't come out till after the war. The Garand went in the direction it logically should have like the Gewehr with a detachable box mag when it became the M-14.
And yeah I was thinking of the STG 44 cartridge Schwarzy. Now if the STG 44 was on the list I'd vote for it!!!
And someone please kill that ridiculous myth that the Enfield fires faster than any semi auto. Hell my pal has one and we've actually done the comparison!! One of the 1st things we saw in basic was an old film showing a Springfield being fired against a Garand. The M-1 put all his rounds on target and was done before the '03 had like 3-4 rounds out. And if you've ever been in a skirmish you know that with a bolt action stick you lose the sight picture every time your cycle the action. They showed the M-1 versus the M-14 at full auto too. Same result- firepower wins.
As much as I personally like my old K-98 there is no question that by 1944, at least, it was outdated. If I'd care about staying alive in a squad I'd want the M-1 Garand in France 1944. We're not talking about Buffalo Bill's wild west show distance shot best done by snipers with bolt actions weapons. We're talking about staying alive in daily firefights with Wehrmacht units in France and later Germany.
The M-1 carbine is a toy in comparison to the Garand. I have both. The M-2 fully automatic didn't come out till after the war. The Garand went in the direction it logically should have like the Gewehr with a detachable box mag when it became the M-14.
And yeah I was thinking of the STG 44 cartridge Schwarzy. Now if the STG 44 was on the list I'd vote for it!!!
And someone please kill that ridiculous myth that the Enfield fires faster than any semi auto. Hell my pal has one and we've actually done the comparison!! One of the 1st things we saw in basic was an old film showing a Springfield being fired against a Garand. The M-1 put all his rounds on target and was done before the '03 had like 3-4 rounds out. And if you've ever been in a skirmish you know that with a bolt action stick you lose the sight picture every time your cycle the action. They showed the M-1 versus the M-14 at full auto too. Same result- firepower wins.
As much as I personally like my old K-98 there is no question that by 1944, at least, it was outdated. If I'd care about staying alive in a squad I'd want the M-1 Garand in France 1944. We're not talking about Buffalo Bill's wild west show distance shot best done by snipers with bolt actions weapons. We're talking about staying alive in daily firefights with Wehrmacht units in France and later Germany.
- Thread starter
- #16
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
trackend said:
Just at the top of my head, a guy with a Garand, can empty his rifle in maybe 3-5 seconds(if he took a little time to aim maybe 7-10 seconds), pop in another clip a repeat.
now when you got 100+ germans charging your position your heart rate increases and you breathing has increased which is a marksmans worst enemy, and its worse when your in a panic to bolt the next round in the chamber, but when you have a weapon that you can fire continiously then quickly and efficiently reload and continue firing you have the upper hand over your BA weapon carrying enemies
schwarzpanzer
Senior Airman
- 662
- Aug 8, 2005
Sorry hussars, just wanted to correct you without being rude.
The Fedorov and MP44 aren't SMG's, they are Assault Rifles. The Fedorov can even be considered a SAW and was even available as a SAW too (like an RPK or MG36). Is SAW what you call them?
IIRC the Garand does have a magazine drop out and the clip can be filled whilst in the rifle.
- Still a bit dodgy though.
I have, but not when in the cadets. Thinking of getting one too.
All WW1 Brit soldiers were taught 'mad-minute' and collective volley fire, but in WW2 I'm not sure? - Though it was common knowledge.
What you do is not use the index finger as a trigger finger, but purely to operate the action. This way you can quickly achieve 15-20 shots on target a minute, whilst 30 is possible. Even 38 as trackend has said.
The Ross Rifle was the UK's Mauser G98 copy IIRC trackend. The Lewis gun was like the Vickers - long in the tooth, but still effective.
The Bren was also good, but now I'm straying...
A Garand just can't beat that.
There was a Garand/BAR hybrid Twitch, though maybe only a prototype?
The Lee-Enfileld is very different to the Springfield Twitch, there are 2 conflicting arguements affecting the design of both. It depends on what the operator prefers and what he can make use of. I personally like the Enfield and don't really 'get' the Mauser action, though others (like DerAdler, I think?) are the other way around.
Yes DerAdler, as a sniper weapon I'd put it in 1st place, the G43 in 2nd strangely enough (esp with the silencer).
The Cei-Rigotti may also be an option?
The Fedorov and MP44 aren't SMG's, they are Assault Rifles. The Fedorov can even be considered a SAW and was even available as a SAW too (like an RPK or MG36). Is SAW what you call them?
IIRC the Garand does have a magazine drop out and the clip can be filled whilst in the rifle.
- Still a bit dodgy though.
I have, but not when in the cadets. Thinking of getting one too.
All WW1 Brit soldiers were taught 'mad-minute' and collective volley fire, but in WW2 I'm not sure? - Though it was common knowledge.
What you do is not use the index finger as a trigger finger, but purely to operate the action. This way you can quickly achieve 15-20 shots on target a minute, whilst 30 is possible. Even 38 as trackend has said.
The Ross Rifle was the UK's Mauser G98 copy IIRC trackend. The Lewis gun was like the Vickers - long in the tooth, but still effective.
The Bren was also good, but now I'm straying...
A Garand just can't beat that.
There was a Garand/BAR hybrid Twitch, though maybe only a prototype?
The Lee-Enfileld is very different to the Springfield Twitch, there are 2 conflicting arguements affecting the design of both. It depends on what the operator prefers and what he can make use of. I personally like the Enfield and don't really 'get' the Mauser action, though others (like DerAdler, I think?) are the other way around.
Yes DerAdler, as a sniper weapon I'd put it in 1st place, the G43 in 2nd strangely enough (esp with the silencer).
The Cei-Rigotti may also be an option?
Just want to correct you scharzpanzer without being rude.
The SAW or Squad Automatic Weapon is not a rifle either...
The SAW or Squad Automatic Weapon is not a rifle either...
- Thread starter
- #19
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Im gonna end this once and for all, I just dug out my book called Jane's GUNS RECOGNITION GUIDE by Ian Hogg, (in case anyones interested its a good resource tool)
and I quote " the M1 Garand was the first automatic rifle to achieve the status of being the regulation primary arm for a major army, the Garand served well and was popular for its reliability and power, it had a defect though, it was the clip loading system which prevented 'topping up' during a lull in the firing, it was either a full clip or nothing"
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
The bottom line on ANY bolt versus a semi is that the semi wins in speed and ability to keep shooter's sight picture. ANd for me if it was betweenan Enfield and a Garand to carry from D-Day till VE Day I'll take the Garand for its superior firepower.
