Thsi is a very interesting read, and I recommend reading it all through very carefully, enjoy: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/rundstedt/index.html
How Rundstedt could've repulsed the Allied invasion in 44
- Thread starter Soren
- Start date
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Interesting article Soren, enjoyed reading that and I agree with some of the points that Von Rundstedt makes.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Yes, that was an inetresting read. Although I do disagree with him on how effective the Luftwaffe "could" have been..."If I had been able to move the troops, then my air force would also have been in a position to attack hostile ships." .......
He himself admits the Luftwaffe was outnumbered 10-1.
He himself admits the Luftwaffe was outnumbered 10-1.
syscom3 said:
I 100% agree, Luftwaffe would not been able to do much vs USA and UK air forces. Germans would of been slauthered. UK and USA could put more fighters over the battle field than German had total on the western front including home land defence. At that point German could not even try and control the air that close to UK where all the Allied planes could reach them. German bombers would of been torn to pieces and I mean small small pieces,
- Thread starter
- #5
You miss the point, he wasn't trying to gain air-superiority, he wanted to repulse the land-based Allied invasion force. And had he been permitted to move his forces when he wanted to, he could've abruptly halted the Allied invasion of Normandy.
By moving his forces closer to the beaches, he would make life abit harder for the Allied fighters/bombers as-well, harassing them by placing Flak installations and having groups of LW fighters fly high and ready at specific places, thereby relieving the emplacements at the beach.
And to the comment that the LW would've been slaughtered by the allied airforce, highly unlikely, but casualties would've been high on both sides.
However even if Hitler would've allowed Rundstedt to move his forces when he wanted to, it is still unclear whether that could've been enough to actually repulse the allied invasion. One thing is for sure though, the initial invasion would've been a much nastier affair for the Allies.
By moving his forces closer to the beaches, he would make life abit harder for the Allied fighters/bombers as-well, harassing them by placing Flak installations and having groups of LW fighters fly high and ready at specific places, thereby relieving the emplacements at the beach.
And to the comment that the LW would've been slaughtered by the allied airforce, highly unlikely, but casualties would've been high on both sides.
However even if Hitler would've allowed Rundstedt to move his forces when he wanted to, it is still unclear whether that could've been enough to actually repulse the allied invasion. One thing is for sure though, the initial invasion would've been a much nastier affair for the Allies.
I agree with your there Soren on the Luftwaffe. I dont know if they could have done eneogh, but the Luftwaffe pilots were very skilled and the aircraft were equal to the allied aircraft they could have done some damage to the allied airforces.
I too dont know if what Rundstedt wanted there would have been eneogh though to stop the invasion, but I do think the story would have been a bit different.
I too dont know if what Rundstedt wanted there would have been eneogh though to stop the invasion, but I do think the story would have been a bit different.
Erich
the old Sage
you guys forget one major point concerning Luftwaffe a/c, pilots and crews.
The NACHTJAGD could of easily been prepared enough to strike with bomblets as they did during the March 45 raid "Unternehmen Gisela"
the Ju 88G-1's and Me 410 A'swere available to make the long trip as US and RAF airfields were known at length. Ammo and fuels were not scarce, and it would of created huge havoc, but the nachtjagd was not called up preferring to use the nigh time defence only to combat RAF heavies over the Reich. Fenenachtjagd had been thrown out after 1941 by the morn der Führer and the ultimate "Fat Man" .
had it done so the RAF home nf defence would of been so strung out it could not have defended it's homeland justifibly.
German day time jabos and twin engines were not then needed to take the war back to England.
Remember Bodenplatte from another thread, a conceivable idea much earlier but transgressed to late in the war to not add up to anything except self destruction of the attacking force(s)
The NACHTJAGD could of easily been prepared enough to strike with bomblets as they did during the March 45 raid "Unternehmen Gisela"
the Ju 88G-1's and Me 410 A'swere available to make the long trip as US and RAF airfields were known at length. Ammo and fuels were not scarce, and it would of created huge havoc, but the nachtjagd was not called up preferring to use the nigh time defence only to combat RAF heavies over the Reich. Fenenachtjagd had been thrown out after 1941 by the morn der Führer and the ultimate "Fat Man" .
had it done so the RAF home nf defence would of been so strung out it could not have defended it's homeland justifibly.
German day time jabos and twin engines were not then needed to take the war back to England.
Remember Bodenplatte from another thread, a conceivable idea much earlier but transgressed to late in the war to not add up to anything except self destruction of the attacking force(s)
syscom3
Pacific Historian
He could have bottled up the invasion into a smaller beachhead for a bit, but eventually, the naval gunfire support and allied bombers would have pushed him out far enough for the allies to have a contiginous beachhead.
The Luftwaffe attacking the ships would have mixed results. They could sink a few ships but the attrition on them would be severe. The allies would have massed naval AA gun fire and an aerial armada of fighters to fend off the bombers.
Just the shear size of the invasion meant the Germans would have to sink hundreds of ships just to have an impact.
The Luftwaffe attacking the ships would have mixed results. They could sink a few ships but the attrition on them would be severe. The allies would have massed naval AA gun fire and an aerial armada of fighters to fend off the bombers.
Just the shear size of the invasion meant the Germans would have to sink hundreds of ships just to have an impact.
Erich
the old Sage
the armada would not have been the armada had the Luftwaffe and Rundestedt plus "Fatty" woken up several days before hand. of course this is all a huge what if but yes it would of been ultimately destructive for the Allies had an "official" night bombing campaign been put into effect striking Enmglish ports. As I said the Luftwaffe knew where the fields and ports all were but yet because of faulty leadership in the higher eschelons their hands were tied.
forget day time resistance as the Lufw. day defences were in process of moving deeper into the Reich, as it was shown on the first day 6-6-44 with few sorties flown and only the enxt days were the generation of JG a/c up in force and decimated
forget day time resistance as the Lufw. day defences were in process of moving deeper into the Reich, as it was shown on the first day 6-6-44 with few sorties flown and only the enxt days were the generation of JG a/c up in force and decimated
syscom3 said:
100% agree with you there. Could the ground forces been better handled by Germany .... yes for sure. Could their LW been better handled... yes for sure. Would allies suffered higher causalities for sure. Would it have stopped the invasion, no. Not to mention keep in mind that the Germans would not have been able to throw their whole army in France at the beach front b/c they needed a reserve to make sure this was not a feint only. So they could of better rolled out their army yes but they could not of responsibly thrown everything they had at them just in case it was just a feint attack and then their flank would of been open. But their army was mislead for sure. But still if you look at the LW in France at the time compared to the allied air force it does not compare in numbers. Yes German pilots were still good quality in France but they were out numbered hugely. Plus if they (fighters) were given the task of protecting ground attack craft (at low level) and escorting their lightly armed bombers (high level) they would of been very stung out and overly tasked and heavy out numbered. Look at LW in BoB the fighters could not protect their bombers good enough then, their fighters would of been even worse odds to face in this battle. They would of been highly out numbered and they would not of been able to use their hit and run tactics that they used so successfully in 41-42 b/c they needed to defend their bombers. Had they hit and run their they would of done some damage (which the allies could of easly replaced) and then their bombers would of been left hanging out there all on their own and the rest of the allied planes would of torn them to pieces. The LW would of suffered horriable attrition losses that they could not replace (ie see Battle of Germany). But like Adler pointed out I think Allies would of suffered higher losts yes but it would not of stopped them.
Erich said:
Eric at this time did Germany have the resources available to them (in the west) in the German bomber forces to attack Uk ports? Plus depending of UK ports (I am not sure) could the allies have not just moved the attack force to ports farther north or west in Uk out of range. Then when Germans moved their bombers closer, they attack their airfields. Plus were most ground attack and bombers that they had far in the east where they were desperately needed ?
Erich
the old Sage
the Luftwaffe night force though fewer than in the day time defence could have dealt some massive blows at the time had they been given fore-notice, something we will never know as a huge what if. Again fuel was there, ammo was there, plenty of crews. bomber formations would of moved to the northern shores of Holland and France to strike out. Co-operation well could of happened between night attacking forces.
As you mentioned which is overall very important, it would not have stopped dthe Allied juggernaut just delayed it. It was evident that the Allies had to play their hand sometime and that sometime was soon in the summer of 44.
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As you mentioned which is overall very important, it would not have stopped dthe Allied juggernaut just delayed it. It was evident that the Allies had to play their hand sometime and that sometime was soon in the summer of 44.
♫
Yup even with 100% hind sight I don't think Germany could of stopped the Allies. It would of been like trying the bail the sinking Titanic with a table spoon. You might of been able to do it alittle better than they did but nothing would of stopped the on stopable juggernaut aka the Allies.
You might of been able to do it alittle better than they did but nothing would of stopped the on stopable juggernaut aka the Allies.
Erich
the old Sage
slight OT but had the Luftwaffe had the quickness to get into action we may have seen V-1 and V-2's aimed in closeness to Allied ports of calling.
then what would of happened... ? Although Peenumünde was obliterated in August of 43, sub factories were not and still dealing with rocket parts for manufacture
then what would of happened... ? Although Peenumünde was obliterated in August of 43, sub factories were not and still dealing with rocket parts for manufacture
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I dont think the Luftwaffe would have based large numbers of aircraft in France/Holland/Belgium. That would present a nice juicy target for the allies. I could imagine the allied response would involve night fighters and bombers to harrass them, followed up by medium bombers to hole the fields in the morning, with heavy bombers next to craterize the airfield.
Just the numbers of fighters that the allies could deploy would mean the Luftwaffe would be on the defensive even before they would be at the forward airfields
Just the numbers of fighters that the allies could deploy would mean the Luftwaffe would be on the defensive even before they would be at the forward airfields
Erich
the old Sage
~ I don't, simply the Allied forces did not have enough NF's at the elected time. Sure this is the reason to spread your forces out evenly and within the tree lines so they do not pose such an easy and quite visible target. But hey I am getting deeper into the what if.
~ As I said bring the Luftw nf force up closer to the coastal borders and the RAF would receive a nasty shock even before they would set over land. Amazing what can happen when a large force gets organized. The RAF knew about Unternehmen Gisela for well over a year and yet some 30 RAF heavies got popped on that March 45 date with the RAF heavies heading home, having no clue what was going to befall them. They were so casual and as standard practice left lights on inplace on the wayward trip leading the German nf's right to the A/F's. Again had the Fernenachtjagd been able to keep up the pace the night air war would have chnged dramaticly
~ As I said bring the Luftw nf force up closer to the coastal borders and the RAF would receive a nasty shock even before they would set over land. Amazing what can happen when a large force gets organized. The RAF knew about Unternehmen Gisela for well over a year and yet some 30 RAF heavies got popped on that March 45 date with the RAF heavies heading home, having no clue what was going to befall them. They were so casual and as standard practice left lights on inplace on the wayward trip leading the German nf's right to the A/F's. Again had the Fernenachtjagd been able to keep up the pace the night air war would have chnged dramaticly
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Erich, could the Luftwaffe been strong enough in April 1944 to begin a sustained bombing offensive against the allied assembly points and depots? If they did, wouldnt that leave Germany wide open for the growing hordes of B17's, B24's and P51's?
Erich
the old Sage
~ not necessarily. the bomber Geschwaders were not supported by Göring after the invasion of the Soviet Union and his faith in them failed so they were left to their own initiatives. It didn't help to have the ugly moustached one press him on this matter. It was always was attack, attack, attack and with what... ?
~ if the Fernenachtjagd missions had been stepped up instead of just using one meagre NJG2 Geschwader in 1941 you would not have seen B-17's B-24's or probably even a mulititude of RAF Lancs and Hali's fly over the Reich. this was how important the the German Night intruder program could have been. As I said several times the Luftw. knew of every RAF airfield on the UK and they were prepared to take it to them until the short turd of an Austrian called the whole thing off. In my personal opinion this is what caused the dramatic turn around in the air war for both night and day. To make it plain and simple historians have overlooked this all important factoid .............
~ E
~ if the Fernenachtjagd missions had been stepped up instead of just using one meagre NJG2 Geschwader in 1941 you would not have seen B-17's B-24's or probably even a mulititude of RAF Lancs and Hali's fly over the Reich. this was how important the the German Night intruder program could have been. As I said several times the Luftw. knew of every RAF airfield on the UK and they were prepared to take it to them until the short turd of an Austrian called the whole thing off. In my personal opinion this is what caused the dramatic turn around in the air war for both night and day. To make it plain and simple historians have overlooked this all important factoid .............
~ E
Erich said:
Intertesting, I have also read how RAF bombers and night fighters became very careless and they left on landing lights, flying lights etc and German NF shot them down right over their own airfield. Just far to few to make any difference.
