Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.

[CharlesBronson]

armement:
1 x 105mm/65C33 with elevation restricted to 20 degrees, 45 rounds per gun, firing a 15.8 Kg APCBC with 900 mp/s muzzle velocity. rof: ~15 rpm, firing cycle is 1 round all 4 sec.
1 x MG 151/15 on turret with 250 rpg

Interesting, to have a MG-151/15 in the turret gave a good antipersonel-antiaircraft capabilities, better than a Browning M2 .50

Sturmgeschutz 27t - Porsche E-25 Jagdpanzer design

 

[Joe2]

I dont know, cocaine maybe ?

Love that picture

 

[HealzDevo]

What German tank is the one behind the trains looking like it is being pulled along? Also it looks like it scraping along the sides of the bridge is it? Massive looking tank. Don't think you could really get much bigger could you?

 

[CharlesBronson]

What German tank is the one behind the trains looking like it is being pulled along? Also it looks like it scraping along the sides of the bridge is it? Massive looking tank. Don't think you could really get much bigger could you?

The Grotte P-1000 ratte obviously, check page 21 for more pictures.

Multipurpose Panzer:

Panzer Tracts 20-1 Paper Panzers - Panzerkampfwagen Jagdpanzers

 

[HealzDevo]

Of course, must have had some sort of automatic loading system because I wouldn't want to be lifting up shells to a gun that big. The big WW2 brass artillery shells from Papua New Guinea we have at home are heavy enough. They are about 75mm I think...

 

[CharlesBronson]

Verdeja Light Tank:

A weird tank desing, the spanish "Carro de combate Verdeja". This vehicle was an attemp by the spanish army in order to get an economic AFV, The engine was placed at front a Ford 6 cilinders with 125hp, The armor vary between 15 to 30mm. The main gun was a high velocity 45mm AT-45, a copy of the russian gun in the T-26. The 2 man turret carry 2 coaxially monted Oviedo 7 mm Mauser Mgs. Another could be placed in the top for AA defense.

in here in comparative test against a captured soviet T-26.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Continue from above....

Scans Revista Armas nº 281.

 

[Trautloft]

these look like they studied the probably captured soviet tanks like BT or t-26 and copied it

 

[genkideskan]

Hello,

there was a P 1500 project too- Interesting is the E- 100 series.

Now showing up at model shows as plastic models, they are very impressive tanks using

the the 12,8 cm KWK 44 (82) and a 7.5cm as coax.

The pic are made at Henschel showing the hull on an railroad car and the

rolled up tracks, the back of an E 100 in the background.

The tank hull was completed and was shipped to England together with spare parts and

uncomplete sectiones for tests.



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[CharlesBronson]

these look like they studied the probably captured soviet tanks like BT or t-26 and copied it

Probably, after some years of experimentation the Verdeja I and II were left aside and Spain bought some Panzer IV.

Hello,

there was a P 1500 project too- Interesting is the E- 100 series.

Now showing up at model shows as plastic models, they are very impressive tanks using

the the 12,8 cm KWK 44 (82) and a 7.5cm as coax.

The pic are made at Henschel showing the hull on an railroad car and the

rolled up tracks, the back of an E 100 in the background.

The tank hull was completed and was shipped to England together with spare parts and

uncomplete sectiones for tests.

Yeap, the P-1500.. I think I ve posted a picture in he early pages, nice model of the E-1200 by the way, funny thing that was less complicated than Maus, but the Maus was choosen instead.

 

[HealzDevo]

Yes, but that is the way the Germans liked things, overly complicated.

 

[CharlesBronson]

The only way they like it.

Check this:

Projeckt NM:

They don't come much stranger than this. A three-view plan can be found in Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Tiger und Seine Abarten by Walter J. Speilberger of what appears to be three large turrets, each with a 12.8cm gun, on an I-beam girder frame measuring approximately 17 metres by 15 metres. It is carried by three Tiger I chassis, two at the rear and one in front (the guns face rearward). The frame is topped by a rectangular wooden building that completely covers the turrets except for the gun tubes. The building has three sets of double doors, which when opened, allow some traverse and elevation of the guns. Projekt NM only existed on the drawing board, although all of its component parts were readily available.

It only takes a cursory inspection of this machine to rule out its use as a "tank". Firstly anything 15m wide would be extremely awkward to manoeuvre anywhere. Tactical mobility would be a problem, for to cross a waterway or ditch it would require three bridges or one very wide one. In order to engage the enemy, it must perform a stately U-turn in order for the guns to bear. This may be feasible in open country, however the building or shed covering the turrets would stand out while performing no useful concealment function. It would be of no more use for fighting other tanks than three separate tanks would.


The only likely use for NM that I can see is some sort of mobile coast defense battery, and I suspect it was probably a Kreigsmarine project after all. If anyone else has a better idea, please write to me. The reasons for this assumption are as follows:


Disguising something as a building would only be of use where it would not look out of place. Even a solitary building on the coast would attract a lot less attention than three gun turrets. I imagine this vehicle reversed into a position overlooking some likely invasion beach, and pretending to be a harmless wooden building. As drawn NM could be shifted between prepared sites as a means of avoiding unwanted attention. I suspect the building would be considered expendable once the shooting started, and merely traversing the outer turrets would be sufficient to clear most of the structure away.

Several hints point to German Navy involvement. Tank projects tended to have either a VK number, or a name (e.g. "Lowe") or some abbreviated descriptive name (e.g. NbFz). The Kreigsmarine were big on letters, "H and "J" were battleship projects, I believe. The extensive I-beam construction is fairly normal for warships, not AFVs. Finally, the "building" limits the vision of the gunners. However if the guns were controlled by a director sited elsewhere, it would not be a problem. Having several turrets aimed externally is something navies have been doing for many years.


Weight of the whole assembly would be anybody's guess, however there would be an upper limit of 165 - 180 tons, based on the suspension capacity of the Tiger carriers, in this case Bergetiger Porsche.

 

[mosquitoman]

Now that is a bit krazy, but feasible as a mobile coast defense battery. However, one near miss would shake that flimsy looking structure to pieces

 

[CharlesBronson]

The main disadvantage in my opinion is the turning movement, very complicated. And yes the cammo would vanish quickly but the turret are heavily armored they would continue firing.

 

[mosquitoman]

I was just thinking that the turrets could get loosened off simply by large shells landing nearby

 

[CharlesBronson]

Probably but is hard to tell given the small details wich had survived.


VK 4502 (P), Panzerkampfwagen "Tiger" P2

Porsche Typ 180 Series

After the failure of the VK 4501 (P), Dr. Porsche began work on an updated version of its design for future production. Given the fluid nature of war, however, it became clear that an uparmored version of the VK4501 would not meet future requirements.


Design for the Typ 180 with the turret mounted toward the front.

True to Porsche's infatuation with obtaining ever higher automotive performance, he proposed no fewer than four different engines, two different drives (electric and hydraulic), and two different hull configurations (one with the turret forward, the other with the turret at the rear)


Design for the Typ 180 with the turret mounted at the rear.

The VK 4502 (P) was therefore numerous vehicles in one. Initially entitled Typ 180, the initial vehicle grew into a series of five different vehicles:

• Typ 180A: Electric drive with Porsche Typ 101/3 gasoline engines.
• Typ 180B: Electric drive with Porsche Typ 101/4 gasoline engines.
• Typ 181A: Voith II hydraulic drive with Porsche Typ 101/3 gasoline engines.
• Typ 181B: Voith II hydraulic drive with Porsche Deutz Typ 180/1 diesel engines.
• Typ 181C: Voith II hydraulic drive with Porsche Deutz Typ 180/2 diesel engines.

The turret of the VK 4502 (P) was developed after Dr. Porsche informed Wa Preuf 6 that the 8.8cm Flak 41 could not be installed in the turret of the VK 4501 (P) on June 21, 1941. By May 7, 1942, the design seems to have been finalized because Krupp reported difficulties shaping the rounded turret front of the turret. The rounded front of this turret was developed to reduce frontal target area, and would not have presented the shot-trap common to the initial production Henschel Tiger II's because the designs of the hull tops differend (at least on the design with the turret forward).


Top view of the Typ 180 with the turret mounted toward the front.

Production of the VK4502 (P) was authorized in April of 1942. Initially an order for 200 hulls and turrets was placed with the first four to be delivered in October. In May of 1942, the delivery schedule was set to proceed as follows:

December 1942: 6 June 1943: 15
January 1943: 15 July 1943: 18
February 1943: 15 August 1943: 20
March 1943: 15 September 1943: 25
April 1943: 15 October 1943: 30
May 1943: 15 November 1943 (onward): 30


Unfortunately for Dr. Porsche his fascination with advanced engine design let to the ultimate failure of the VK 4502 (P). The 10-cylinder engines failed during trials, and there was no confidence that the design would bear fruit (given previous Porsche failures using the same drivetrain layout). In November of 1942, all of the contracts relating to the VK 4502 (P) were rescinded. Work did, however continue into the middle of 1944. By that time the vehicle had hydraulic drive, new suspension, a 900 metric horsepower air-cooled diesel, and heavier armament with delivery schedule "far in the future." Ultimately the turrets were converted for use on the Henschel Tiger II.

 

[HealzDevo]

That is crazy, that idea of the wooden building. Anyone think that the building camoflague could shake itself to pieces in transit? I don't really know about the suspension but if the building is that flimsy then it will shake itself to pieces almost straight away...

 

[CharlesBronson]

The suspension are 3 bergepanther porsche.

This is a rarity for sure, improvisated artillery bunker build up over Panzer III chasis.

 

[m kenny]

The 'bunker' reference is clearly meant to describe the Panther turrets used as pill boxes in Berlin.
This is an early chassis PzIV conversion of some sort.

 

[CharlesBronson]

You are right, the vehicle seems to be a Jagdpanzer IV without the gun, sorry for my fast reading