HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
So how would that work, I wonder?
Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
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How a turret would be used as a pill box? Do you really need an explanation?
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- #343
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
How ?
Easy one, you dig and cover it.
Panther turrets as pill-boxes
During the Italian campaign the Germans mounted Panther's turrets on concrete pillboxes for anti-tank defence. Some were installed for saving the vehicles while providing a cheap but powerful anti-tank capability, but the most were expecially designed ones with increased 40 mm roof armor to whithstand heavy artillery shells, and heavier 70mm side armor. Most of the Italian inland was mountanous: by blocking a few passes with assault guns and anti-tank pill-boxes (as the Panther's one) the Germans were able to contain the menace with their thinily spread forces.
Although the majority of this Panther Ostwallturm saw employement in the East, in the effort of building strong German defensive positions along along a line going from Narva to Crimea. As war progressed many German cities were named felde platze (fortress) and turrets (both appositely designed ones or from damaged tanks) were used to strengthen these improvised positions.
The turrets, with their low profile, resulted quite impressive to Allies commands and an evaluation of the Panther turrets employed as pill-boxes by the British Mediterranean theatre high command (circa August 1944) expressed in these terms (extract from T. Jentz's Panther variants):
Easy one, you dig and cover it.
Panther turrets as pill-boxes
During the Italian campaign the Germans mounted Panther's turrets on concrete pillboxes for anti-tank defence. Some were installed for saving the vehicles while providing a cheap but powerful anti-tank capability, but the most were expecially designed ones with increased 40 mm roof armor to whithstand heavy artillery shells, and heavier 70mm side armor. Most of the Italian inland was mountanous: by blocking a few passes with assault guns and anti-tank pill-boxes (as the Panther's one) the Germans were able to contain the menace with their thinily spread forces.
Although the majority of this Panther Ostwallturm saw employement in the East, in the effort of building strong German defensive positions along along a line going from Narva to Crimea. As war progressed many German cities were named felde platze (fortress) and turrets (both appositely designed ones or from damaged tanks) were used to strengthen these improvised positions.
The turrets, with their low profile, resulted quite impressive to Allies commands and an evaluation of the Panther turrets employed as pill-boxes by the British Mediterranean theatre high command (circa August 1944) expressed in these terms (extract from T. Jentz's Panther variants):
SoD Stitch
Banned
They used the turret from the tank shown in the picture (V2) and put it on the second chassis (V1) to make one tank. And, yes, it is currently on display at Kubinka Tank Museum outside of Moscow.
- Thread starter
- #345
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Panzerkampfwagen VI ausfurung H2.
This vehicle is a strange mix of components.
This was comprised of a Tiger 1 chassis and a new turret armed with a KwK 42 of 75 mm L/70 with a single chamber muzzle brake.
The front of the turret had 100mm armor plus a round 100 mm mantlet.
The tank was armed with 3 Mg-34, one manned by the radio operator in the hull, other coaxially mounted and a third one in the rear of the turret in a ball mounting ( characteristic probably borrowed from the russian KV series)
The commanders cuppola was the simple "garbage can" of the earliest Panther ausf D.
Additional defense against infantry attacks was provided for 2 pistols ports on the sides. No less than 100 rounds of 75mm were carried internally.
This design did not progress further because the production of the normal Tiger 1 with 88mm gun was choose instead, the deadly Kwk 42 were mounted exclusively in the Pz V Panther. This projeckt was cancelled in July 1942.
This vehicle is a strange mix of components.
This was comprised of a Tiger 1 chassis and a new turret armed with a KwK 42 of 75 mm L/70 with a single chamber muzzle brake.
The front of the turret had 100mm armor plus a round 100 mm mantlet.
The tank was armed with 3 Mg-34, one manned by the radio operator in the hull, other coaxially mounted and a third one in the rear of the turret in a ball mounting ( characteristic probably borrowed from the russian KV series)
The commanders cuppola was the simple "garbage can" of the earliest Panther ausf D.
Additional defense against infantry attacks was provided for 2 pistols ports on the sides. No less than 100 rounds of 75mm were carried internally.
This design did not progress further because the production of the normal Tiger 1 with 88mm gun was choose instead, the deadly Kwk 42 were mounted exclusively in the Pz V Panther. This projeckt was cancelled in July 1942.
- Thread starter
- #346
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Gerät 338.
This projekt of flakpanzer was designed in mid 1944, the armament was a single Flak 43 37 mm automatic cannon emplaced in a fully traversible fully armored turret.
There is no much ( better said there is no any) information in wich chassis it was based, but my guessing is it must be build up over the recce vehicle VK 1602 Leopard or the MZP, multipurpose panzer.
To more info about those just browse the earlier pages of this topic.
Image of "Deutsche panzer raritaten", Michael Sawodny, Waffen Arsenal.
This projekt of flakpanzer was designed in mid 1944, the armament was a single Flak 43 37 mm automatic cannon emplaced in a fully traversible fully armored turret.
There is no much ( better said there is no any) information in wich chassis it was based, but my guessing is it must be build up over the recce vehicle VK 1602 Leopard or the MZP, multipurpose panzer.
To more info about those just browse the earlier pages of this topic.
Image of "Deutsche panzer raritaten", Michael Sawodny, Waffen Arsenal.
- Thread starter
- #347
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Munitionspanzer with MK-103.
A very rare improvisated "flakpanzer" , a munitionspanzer with a 30mm Rheinmetall MK 103 automatic gun.
A very rare improvisated "flakpanzer" , a munitionspanzer with a 30mm Rheinmetall MK 103 automatic gun.
- Thread starter
- #349
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
It is a MK 103 "jaboschreck", definately.
- Thread starter
- #350
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Panther ausf D mit le.Fh 43.
This projekt comprised a Panther chassis armed with a 105 mm field howitzer in a open turret. The vehicle was relatively simple was simple but General Guderian simply refuses to gave away Panther elements for artillery vehicles with ( teorically) could be constructed with more cheap panzers.
This projekt comprised a Panther chassis armed with a 105 mm field howitzer in a open turret. The vehicle was relatively simple was simple but General Guderian simply refuses to gave away Panther elements for artillery vehicles with ( teorically) could be constructed with more cheap panzers.
- Thread starter
- #351
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Durchbruchwagen
One of the most unknown projekts of the german army were the early attemps to create a heavy tank ( heavy for the mid 1930s standar that is)
In late January of 1937, Waffenamt ordered Henschel und Sohn of Kassel to design and produce prototype of heavy 30-ton class tank. Designated as Durchbruchwagen (Breakthrough Tank), it was to be Germany's first heavy tank intended to breakthrough enemy defense lines dealing with machine gun nest, antitank guns and artillery.
Prototype of DW I was produced by Henschel and was protected by 50mm thick armor. The running gear consisted of five road-wheels supported by torsion bars.and three return rollers. Waffenamt put Krupp in charge of the production of the turret and its armament. Krupp decided to produce the turret similar to that of Panzer IV and armed with the same 75mm KwK 37 L/24 gun. Only one test hull was produced in late 1937, but its turret was never manufactured. At the time of the development of DW I, Waffenamt ordered Henschel to design and produce prototype of never heavy 30-ton class tank.
Designated as DW II, it was an improved and modified version of previous DW I. Both, DW I (30000kg) and DW II (33000kg) were powered by Maybach HL 120 engine (280hp) allowing it to travel at the top speed of 35km/h. As well as DW I, only one prototype was built in 1938 and once again its turret was never manufactured. It was also planned to use PzKpfw IV Ausf C turret on DW II. In late 1938, DW project was cancelled and on September 9 of 1938, VK3001(H) project started. Both DW I and DW II were extensively tested until 1941 and provided Henschel with valuable experience used in the development of VK3001(H) tank and other future designs.
Durbruchwagen (with Panzer IV ausf C. turret)
One of the most unknown projekts of the german army were the early attemps to create a heavy tank ( heavy for the mid 1930s standar that is)
In late January of 1937, Waffenamt ordered Henschel und Sohn of Kassel to design and produce prototype of heavy 30-ton class tank. Designated as Durchbruchwagen (Breakthrough Tank), it was to be Germany's first heavy tank intended to breakthrough enemy defense lines dealing with machine gun nest, antitank guns and artillery.
Prototype of DW I was produced by Henschel and was protected by 50mm thick armor. The running gear consisted of five road-wheels supported by torsion bars.and three return rollers. Waffenamt put Krupp in charge of the production of the turret and its armament. Krupp decided to produce the turret similar to that of Panzer IV and armed with the same 75mm KwK 37 L/24 gun. Only one test hull was produced in late 1937, but its turret was never manufactured. At the time of the development of DW I, Waffenamt ordered Henschel to design and produce prototype of never heavy 30-ton class tank.
Designated as DW II, it was an improved and modified version of previous DW I. Both, DW I (30000kg) and DW II (33000kg) were powered by Maybach HL 120 engine (280hp) allowing it to travel at the top speed of 35km/h. As well as DW I, only one prototype was built in 1938 and once again its turret was never manufactured. It was also planned to use PzKpfw IV Ausf C turret on DW II. In late 1938, DW project was cancelled and on September 9 of 1938, VK3001(H) project started. Both DW I and DW II were extensively tested until 1941 and provided Henschel with valuable experience used in the development of VK3001(H) tank and other future designs.
Durbruchwagen (with Panzer IV ausf C. turret)
learnfromthepastfortoday
Recruit
- 1
- Aug 25, 2007
Anyone have any information or pictures of this mysterious German WW2 project?
AIRBORNE OPERATIONS: A GERMAN APPRAISAL
AIRBORNE OPERATIONS
A German Appraisal
CMH Pub 104-13
Page 45
APPENDIX
NOTES ON GERMAN AIRBORNE OPERATIONS By Col. Freiherr von der Heydte.
Section I. EQUIPMENT OF GERMAN PARACHUTE TROOPS
"Immediately after the Crete operation the paratroops had requested the construction of special midget tanks (Lilliputpanzer), which could be carried along on airborne operations, as well as special light weight portable antitank guns. Experiments were begun in 1942 on a two-man tank which could be transported in a large troop-carrying glider and which because of its shape was called a "turtle." Because of difficulties in the armament production program, the experiments were discontinued toward the end of 1942 before it was possible to form a definite opinion on the usefulness of the model. In any case, it seems to have met the Army's three requirements of low silhouette, high speed, and great cross-country mobility as fully as possible."
AIRBORNE OPERATIONS: A GERMAN APPRAISAL
AIRBORNE OPERATIONS
A German Appraisal
CMH Pub 104-13
Page 45
APPENDIX
NOTES ON GERMAN AIRBORNE OPERATIONS By Col. Freiherr von der Heydte.
Section I. EQUIPMENT OF GERMAN PARACHUTE TROOPS
"Immediately after the Crete operation the paratroops had requested the construction of special midget tanks (Lilliputpanzer), which could be carried along on airborne operations, as well as special light weight portable antitank guns. Experiments were begun in 1942 on a two-man tank which could be transported in a large troop-carrying glider and which because of its shape was called a "turtle." Because of difficulties in the armament production program, the experiments were discontinued toward the end of 1942 before it was possible to form a definite opinion on the usefulness of the model. In any case, it seems to have met the Army's three requirements of low silhouette, high speed, and great cross-country mobility as fully as possible."
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- #353
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Definately sound like the VK 601 light tank also named "Panzer 1 ausf C"
However I dont think that it is a "liliputpanzer".
VK 601
The VK 601 had a maximum armor of 30 mm, two man crew one MG 34 one heavy MG EW-141 and with his 150 hp Maybach it could reach 67 km/h.
However I dont think that it is a "liliputpanzer".
VK 601
The VK 601 had a maximum armor of 30 mm, two man crew one MG 34 one heavy MG EW-141 and with his 150 hp Maybach it could reach 67 km/h.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
That's a tiny tank!
It looks like German boys playing with their toys!
That's what some kids will want for Christmas this year I bet.
It looks like German boys playing with their toys!
That's what some kids will want for Christmas this year I bet.
Konigstiger205
Staff Sergeant
I could definitely find some use for one of that...
- Thread starter
- #356
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Teorically was for infantry support, but with his lack of a real heavy weapon is hard to tell. anyway it was designed for airborne use, actually the Me-321 could easily acomodate one plus some infantry and the me-323 could carry two.
- Thread starter
- #357
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
A veri interesting Albert Speer showing Hitler a mock-up of King Tiger and munition for the new panzers. From left to right pzg 39/42 and spreng 39/42 (Panther), Pzg 39/42 and Spreng 39/42 (Tiger II, Elephant; Jagdpanther), and in the far right you can the see ammo for the kwk 36 Tiger 1, nearly dwarfed by the others two 
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Can someone tell me some more about this one?
It's the 12,8 cm K44 auf Panther. I especially want to know what the difference was with the Grille 12. Could it be that the turret of the Grille was removable while that of the other one wasn't? The Grille dates back from 1942 while the 12,8 cm K44 auf Panther seems to be a 1944 project.
Panther 1944 - Artillerie auf Pantherfahrgestell - Kruppentwürfe
And second question, how does this rather well known gun compare with the 10,5cm L/56 and the 170mm K 72 L/50 (of the Grille 17)?
Kris
It's the 12,8 cm K44 auf Panther. I especially want to know what the difference was with the Grille 12. Could it be that the turret of the Grille was removable while that of the other one wasn't? The Grille dates back from 1942 while the 12,8 cm K44 auf Panther seems to be a 1944 project.
Panther 1944 - Artillerie auf Pantherfahrgestell - Kruppentwürfe
And second question, how does this rather well known gun compare with the 10,5cm L/56 and the 170mm K 72 L/50 (of the Grille 17)?
Kris
Attachments
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- #359
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Is hard to compare the benefit of one or other design since those never advanced from the paper.
I going to search more info , I think in "Panther varinats" of Jent/Doyle must be some about this project. At the first glance it seems like a non removable turret.
I going to search more info , I think in "Panther varinats" of Jent/Doyle must be some about this project. At the first glance it seems like a non removable turret.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
While you're at it, can you dig up some information on that gun? Especially the weight would be interesting to compare with the 88.
And second, do you know anything of a new 10,5 cm cannon which was supposed to be the new gun for the medium-heavy tanks?
Kris
And second, do you know anything of a new 10,5 cm cannon which was supposed to be the new gun for the medium-heavy tanks?
Kris
