Retribution against Germans after the war,graphic,not for everone
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mikewint
Captain
"Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves,
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, -
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!
"The State, therefore, is the most flagrant, the most cynical, and the most complete negation of humanity. It shatters the universal solidarity of all men on the earth, and brings some of them into association only for the purpose of destroying, conquering, and enslaving all the rest. It protects its own citizens only; it recognizes human rights, humanity, civilization within its own confines alone. Since it recognizes no rights outside itself, it logically arrogates to itself the right to exercise the most ferocious inhumanity toward all foreign populations, which it can plunder, exterminate, or enslave at will."
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves,
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, -
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!
"The State, therefore, is the most flagrant, the most cynical, and the most complete negation of humanity. It shatters the universal solidarity of all men on the earth, and brings some of them into association only for the purpose of destroying, conquering, and enslaving all the rest. It protects its own citizens only; it recognizes human rights, humanity, civilization within its own confines alone. Since it recognizes no rights outside itself, it logically arrogates to itself the right to exercise the most ferocious inhumanity toward all foreign populations, which it can plunder, exterminate, or enslave at will."
mikewint
Captain
Yup, that be him, Mikhail Bakunin
Liberty is so great a magician, endowed with so marvelous a power of productivity, that under the inspiration of this spirit alone, North America was able within less than a century to equal, and even surpass, the civilization of Europe.
I am not myself free or human until or unless I recognize the freedom and humanity of all my fellowmen.
Only in respecting their human character do I respect my own. ...
I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation.
The poem is of course Robert Burns
Liberty is so great a magician, endowed with so marvelous a power of productivity, that under the inspiration of this spirit alone, North America was able within less than a century to equal, and even surpass, the civilization of Europe.
I am not myself free or human until or unless I recognize the freedom and humanity of all my fellowmen.
Only in respecting their human character do I respect my own. ...
I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation.
The poem is of course Robert Burns
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parsifal
Colonel
Please forgive me for not sharing your empathies and sympathies.
The Russians alone had 26 million reasons for the injustices they inflicted upon the Germans after the war.
In total, there were about 50 million casualties needed to win the European war. Of which about 6-7 million were German, and of those about 5 million were legitimate military deaths. Of the 45 million or so suffered by the allies and neutrals, about 35 million, give or take (and disregarding the Nuremberg findings that all the allied deaths were unlawful) can at least be termed"questionable". i have a better word, its called murder.
War is not fair, one of the first casualties is justice. In the circumstances of the end of the war, there were bound to be the most awful of reprisals. I dont condone that in any way. but it is understandable. What is not understandable is the apparent pleasure and joy the Nazis derived from the slaughter and torture they showed from their actions, even at times of the war when they could have acted differently
No, I dont feel sympathy. Yes what I have learnt over my lifetime still makes me angry and indignant toward the germans. No, I dont blame the current generation, but no i will never forget what that generation of germans did, and no I will never stop trying to tell the world what germany was guilty.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtRDt6uAB0U
counter balanced by this
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0FM_7_drf0
The Russians alone had 26 million reasons for the injustices they inflicted upon the Germans after the war.
In total, there were about 50 million casualties needed to win the European war. Of which about 6-7 million were German, and of those about 5 million were legitimate military deaths. Of the 45 million or so suffered by the allies and neutrals, about 35 million, give or take (and disregarding the Nuremberg findings that all the allied deaths were unlawful) can at least be termed"questionable". i have a better word, its called murder.
War is not fair, one of the first casualties is justice. In the circumstances of the end of the war, there were bound to be the most awful of reprisals. I dont condone that in any way. but it is understandable. What is not understandable is the apparent pleasure and joy the Nazis derived from the slaughter and torture they showed from their actions, even at times of the war when they could have acted differently
No, I dont feel sympathy. Yes what I have learnt over my lifetime still makes me angry and indignant toward the germans. No, I dont blame the current generation, but no i will never forget what that generation of germans did, and no I will never stop trying to tell the world what germany was guilty.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtRDt6uAB0U
counter balanced by this
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0FM_7_drf0
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mikewint
Captain
Michael, while I do understand your feelings Two wrongs do not a right make.
From Confucius: Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, leaves an eyeless toothless world.
and it is always worthwhile to look at things from the other side
"What America is tasting now is something insignificant compared to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our nation (the Islamic world) has been tasting this humiliation and degradation for more than 80 years. Its sons are killed, its blood is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked and no one hears and no one heeds. Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins. . . . To America, I say only a few words to it and its people. I swear to God, who has elevated the skies without pillars, neither America nor the people who live in it will dream of security before we live it here in Palestine and not before all the infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, peace be upon him."
― Osama bin Laden, Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden
From Confucius: Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, leaves an eyeless toothless world.
and it is always worthwhile to look at things from the other side
"What America is tasting now is something insignificant compared to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our nation (the Islamic world) has been tasting this humiliation and degradation for more than 80 years. Its sons are killed, its blood is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked and no one hears and no one heeds. Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins. . . . To America, I say only a few words to it and its people. I swear to God, who has elevated the skies without pillars, neither America nor the people who live in it will dream of security before we live it here in Palestine and not before all the infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, peace be upon him."
― Osama bin Laden, Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Goebbels would have been proud of Bin Ladin's propeganda.
As far as the Germans go, they (the leaders) brought this on themselves. Thier brutal method of subjugation drove any last bit of mercy out of the hearts of the people they oppressed.
When the Wehrmacht rolled into the Ukraine, for example, the people lined the streets and showered the troops with flowers. They danced and celebrated at the arrival of their liberators and Russian soldiers even defected to the Germans, wanting to fight the Red Army. Instead of embracing this HUGE opportunity to turn the people against Stalin, they started the systematic elimination and oppression of the people, which would come back to haunt them eventually in East Prussia.
As far as the Germans go, they (the leaders) brought this on themselves. Thier brutal method of subjugation drove any last bit of mercy out of the hearts of the people they oppressed.
When the Wehrmacht rolled into the Ukraine, for example, the people lined the streets and showered the troops with flowers. They danced and celebrated at the arrival of their liberators and Russian soldiers even defected to the Germans, wanting to fight the Red Army. Instead of embracing this HUGE opportunity to turn the people against Stalin, they started the systematic elimination and oppression of the people, which would come back to haunt them eventually in East Prussia.
The problem with that BS is that even the majority of the generation you are talking about are innocent.
I invite you to tell my wife's Grandmother who was 7 years old at the time that what the Russian men did to her was justified.
What a crock of ****...
No arguments from me that the Nazi's brought this on the German people, but to say that innocent Children deserved what they got is ignorant and BS. Not saying you are doing this, nor is this post directed at you.
I think it is time for me to walk away...
parsifal
Colonel
Unfortunately they are not innocent. To say they are is as bad as any of the holocaust deniers. War guilt goes to a national level, and at a national level, the reason for the war was Germany. Not Hitler, not the Nazis, not Churchill. None of that would have mattered a toss except for one thing....germany
I am sorry to hear about your wifes grandmother, but does not alter the view that i have. I am sorry for that. And I invite you to say to my Jewish friend who lost his entire family to this whole madness that its a crock of BS. Lucky for you lot he is more forgiving than me.
Or my Russian wife's grandmother who watched her mother be torn apart by German guard dogs, and her sister mercilessly raped repeatedly by guess who .
How many Russians do you think suffered , how many Poles, how many any nation who opposed the Germans. So many died , 35 million, give or take, many of them needlessly, and many of them whilst their torturers stood there laughing.
The crock of BS my friend is trying to convince me how much the Germans suffered. Yes, they suffered, I have German blood too. My father (stepfather, but more father than my own Dad, for the last 32 years) fought at Stalingrad and watched a lot of this happen. Ask him what happened to his sister in '45 at the hands of the Russians. Ask him about the descent into barbarity in the east. There is no morality in this, no right or wrong. Just those that survive and those that dont. And the knowledge of which nation started it all.
you, of all people should know how cruel a war can be. The little pieces Ive seen here and there, the uglines in myself, I never want to see again, and yet its nothing to what happened in those times.
Yes I am angry, and for good reason. I havent just read about this stuff and formed some academic conclusion. I have people around me, people I know and care about, people that were there and told me what they saw. I am sufficiently unnaffected to be a voice in this and that voice is is often not liked. These are deep cuts my friend, as deep as the ones you and your family suffered.
So now you know something as to why I am what i am. Deal with it as you believe right.
You are right. Time to walk away from this.
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I don't give a flying ****. Innocents on all sides of the war are all victims. A child regardless of their nationality is not at fault, did not deserve the atrocities they felt. Just like 7 year old Jewish girl did not ask to be put in a death camp, a 7 year old German girl did not ask to be gang raped repeatedly.
I am a rational person. I don't pretend the war was black and white as you spew. Where the Germans and Nazi's at fault? Absolutely. Did they bring great suffering on the world. Absolutely.
Does that mean that atrocities on innocent women and children is just. I don't give a **** what nationality they where.
To even say I am the same as a holocaust denier is a low blow and final straw. In the real world that would get you a throat punch. I am not going to sit here and let you put me in the same pot. You understand that. With that comment, and your accusation you have taken this conversation too far.
Don't call me a friend...
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Oh no you disliked my post??!! The hurt the pain...
Lets see lets dumb this down a bit.
Last Saturday a friend/coworker of mines 4 year old nephew was killed by a drunk driver. The drunk driver was obviously at fault and should be punished. The drunk driver had twin 3 year old kids. Are they at fault? Do they deserve the same punishment?
Of course not. They are innocent.
The innocents on both sides lose...
Last Saturday a friend/coworker of mines 4 year old nephew was killed by a drunk driver. The drunk driver was obviously at fault and should be punished. The drunk driver had twin 3 year old kids. Are they at fault? Do they deserve the same punishment?
Of course not. They are innocent.
The innocents on both sides lose...
parsifal
Colonel
against my better judgement i came back to this discussion.
Lets get some things straight. i am not saying any of the crimes against innocents are justified. The opposite. Since when though was any war moral.
I am not saying you are a holocaust denier. And it is childish to threaten me with a throat punch, or even say that you would like to.... the same as if i said that if you tried, it would be the last thing you tried in this world, becaue either I, or my police friends would make sure of it. This is just a conversation. I am saying that those that say Germany does not have national guilt are as bad as holocaust deniers. Know the difference, because they are worlds apart. Your inference is that all but a few germans were responsible for the war. Im saying the war happened because the many allowed the few to run amok. As the saying goes, the best way for evil to flourish is for the many to do nothing. War blame is determined at a national level. The criminal code is at an individual level. The two are completely different concepts, though an individual, in theory at least, can be held accountable for his actions in war. The drunk driver is to blame in the situation you describe, but a war is not a car accident, it is a national decision, to which the nation stands accountable. That was proven at nuremberg. And pretty convincingly. If a nation is responsible for making war, and I assume you concede it was germany that started the war, then who should carry the blame. For individuals who do not follow the rules of war there should be individual justice, for nations that make war, national accountability. unfortunately thats the theory. the truth is that so much blood was shed it was impossible in 1945 to keep everything so clinical.
The reason the Russians were in Berlin in 1945 was because of the war. We can argue all day about whose fault that is. frankly it doesnt matter. The Russians were there because their country was invaded in 1941 and as a nation almost to a man they wanted revenge. Doesnt make it right. What happened in Berlin, and elsewhere should have been punished but wasnt.
I never said any of this was right. I said i had no sympathy. I dont have sympathy because I know what that war did and it affects me personally. I am not devoid of emotion. if I was I would be like my holocaust friend . I believe it was brought about by Germany.
In war there is no moral high ground. War is amoral. But there is judgement there is emotion and there is guilt. There was a French King once who described war as the perogative of nations. Nations bear the guilt of making war. A nation is everyone, young old, good, bad, innocent, guilty. But the responsibility for making war is the nations. its the responsibility of everyone in that nation, and if a nation is found guilty of aggressive or unnecessary war, then the whole nation is guilty. You dont like me saying that, because you see innocent people getting hurt and blamed, and cannot or do not want to, understand how someone like me says they are guilty. But they are, because of their nationality. There is diminished responsibility , in this case because of their age, and they should be subject to the protections of the law, but in reality that doesnt always happen. Being a national of a nation guilty of making war does not in any way justify what happened, but neither does it mean in 1945 we are all best buddies either. Unfortunately emotions did come into it and vengeance led to crimes like the rape of your wifes grandmother. That was a crime, and its terrible, and the people that did should face justice. Its what happened to your wifes grandmother and 35 million allied casualties to be precise, and in most cases there was no justice for those losses.
I will not yield on this. i will treat you or anyone else with respect, even empathy, but i will not abandon those who can no longer speak, whatever the cost to me personally. And dont try and make out Im disrespecting you or insulting you. i dont want this to be as personal as it has degenerated to, I am not baiting you insulting you or any of that. If you are going to do what i suspect you will , call it for what it is.
And now I really am going to leave this discussion, watch from a distance perhaps.
And hitting the dislike button was not about you, and not aimed at you. It was about what was said, and what i thought about it.
Lets get some things straight. i am not saying any of the crimes against innocents are justified. The opposite. Since when though was any war moral.
I am not saying you are a holocaust denier. And it is childish to threaten me with a throat punch, or even say that you would like to.... the same as if i said that if you tried, it would be the last thing you tried in this world, becaue either I, or my police friends would make sure of it. This is just a conversation. I am saying that those that say Germany does not have national guilt are as bad as holocaust deniers. Know the difference, because they are worlds apart. Your inference is that all but a few germans were responsible for the war. Im saying the war happened because the many allowed the few to run amok. As the saying goes, the best way for evil to flourish is for the many to do nothing. War blame is determined at a national level. The criminal code is at an individual level. The two are completely different concepts, though an individual, in theory at least, can be held accountable for his actions in war. The drunk driver is to blame in the situation you describe, but a war is not a car accident, it is a national decision, to which the nation stands accountable. That was proven at nuremberg. And pretty convincingly. If a nation is responsible for making war, and I assume you concede it was germany that started the war, then who should carry the blame. For individuals who do not follow the rules of war there should be individual justice, for nations that make war, national accountability. unfortunately thats the theory. the truth is that so much blood was shed it was impossible in 1945 to keep everything so clinical.
The reason the Russians were in Berlin in 1945 was because of the war. We can argue all day about whose fault that is. frankly it doesnt matter. The Russians were there because their country was invaded in 1941 and as a nation almost to a man they wanted revenge. Doesnt make it right. What happened in Berlin, and elsewhere should have been punished but wasnt.
I never said any of this was right. I said i had no sympathy. I dont have sympathy because I know what that war did and it affects me personally. I am not devoid of emotion. if I was I would be like my holocaust friend . I believe it was brought about by Germany.
In war there is no moral high ground. War is amoral. But there is judgement there is emotion and there is guilt. There was a French King once who described war as the perogative of nations. Nations bear the guilt of making war. A nation is everyone, young old, good, bad, innocent, guilty. But the responsibility for making war is the nations. its the responsibility of everyone in that nation, and if a nation is found guilty of aggressive or unnecessary war, then the whole nation is guilty. You dont like me saying that, because you see innocent people getting hurt and blamed, and cannot or do not want to, understand how someone like me says they are guilty. But they are, because of their nationality. There is diminished responsibility , in this case because of their age, and they should be subject to the protections of the law, but in reality that doesnt always happen. Being a national of a nation guilty of making war does not in any way justify what happened, but neither does it mean in 1945 we are all best buddies either. Unfortunately emotions did come into it and vengeance led to crimes like the rape of your wifes grandmother. That was a crime, and its terrible, and the people that did should face justice. Its what happened to your wifes grandmother and 35 million allied casualties to be precise, and in most cases there was no justice for those losses.
I will not yield on this. i will treat you or anyone else with respect, even empathy, but i will not abandon those who can no longer speak, whatever the cost to me personally. And dont try and make out Im disrespecting you or insulting you. i dont want this to be as personal as it has degenerated to, I am not baiting you insulting you or any of that. If you are going to do what i suspect you will , call it for what it is.
And now I really am going to leave this discussion, watch from a distance perhaps.
And hitting the dislike button was not about you, and not aimed at you. It was about what was said, and what i thought about it.
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mikewint
Captain
The problem with retributive justice is as I posted before, two wrongs don't make a right. Taking "an eye for an eye" just results in two mutilated people instead of one. Its only purpose is cathartic, and that is retributive justice's other major flaw: it appeals to the worst side of human nature, our sadistic capacity for taking satisfaction in another's suffering. Hence it becomes questionable whether the punishers are really morally superior to the perpetrator.
Opposition to retributive justice has often been expressed, and reform of retributive laws has been growing in Western civilisation since the Enlightenment, also spreading to other cultures. Death penalties are still used in many countries, but public executions are now a thing of the past in all but the most extreme regimes. However, the retributive principle is still very popular, as expressed in public anger and demands for punishment whenever severe crimes are reported in the press. Prison sentences can also be regarded as at least partly retributive, on the understanding that incarceration is what wrongdoers deserve.
Those in Germany who perpetrated these hedinous crimes deserve severe punishment even to death beyond a shadow of a doubt BUT there is simply NO way to justify going into an ethnic German region, rounding up anyone who spoke German, lining them up against a wall and shooting them.
As Chris posted above do we root out the drunk's entire family? And how about all those who saw the drunk and did nothing and those who served the alcohol, and those who saw the accident and did not stop to help and.....
"When you're asked to stay out of a bar you don't just punch the owner--you come back with your army and tear the place down, destroy the whole edifice and everything it stands for. No compromise. If a man gets wise, mash his face. If a woman snubs you, rape her. This is the thinking, if not the reality, behind the whole Hell's Angels act."
― Hunter S. Thompson, Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga
Opposition to retributive justice has often been expressed, and reform of retributive laws has been growing in Western civilisation since the Enlightenment, also spreading to other cultures. Death penalties are still used in many countries, but public executions are now a thing of the past in all but the most extreme regimes. However, the retributive principle is still very popular, as expressed in public anger and demands for punishment whenever severe crimes are reported in the press. Prison sentences can also be regarded as at least partly retributive, on the understanding that incarceration is what wrongdoers deserve.
Those in Germany who perpetrated these hedinous crimes deserve severe punishment even to death beyond a shadow of a doubt BUT there is simply NO way to justify going into an ethnic German region, rounding up anyone who spoke German, lining them up against a wall and shooting them.
As Chris posted above do we root out the drunk's entire family? And how about all those who saw the drunk and did nothing and those who served the alcohol, and those who saw the accident and did not stop to help and.....
"When you're asked to stay out of a bar you don't just punch the owner--you come back with your army and tear the place down, destroy the whole edifice and everything it stands for. No compromise. If a man gets wise, mash his face. If a woman snubs you, rape her. This is the thinking, if not the reality, behind the whole Hell's Angels act."
― Hunter S. Thompson, Hell's Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Pity there isnt a button to dislike a whole thread. 2 people commenting on this thread should know better than to start spouting crap and threats, grow up the pair of you.
parsifal
Colonel
I should like to apologise to everyone, including adler for the poor behaviour in this thread.
mikewint
Captain
Michael, I can appreciate your views and though I do not agree this is a FORUM which is by definition a place for opinions to be put forth.
I also fully understand the emotions evoked by this topic. Chris is very directly involved in what was done to innocent (YES, most Germans were, are you personally responsible for everything your government does?) Germans after the war. My relatives in Germany are more distant and I have no first person testimony as does Chris.
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
I also fully understand the emotions evoked by this topic. Chris is very directly involved in what was done to innocent (YES, most Germans were, are you personally responsible for everything your government does?) Germans after the war. My relatives in Germany are more distant and I have no first person testimony as does Chris.
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
The feeling is mutual about everything you have spewed in this thread.
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