109G Vs Spitfire IX in '42

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Vincenzo, Mar 12, 2009.

  1. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    Comparison of two of the best fighter of '42 (only variants that actually fightning that year), IMHO the top two fighter of year.
    The G-2 was same of G-1 w/o presurrized cockpit (G-4 same of G-2 with different radio set).
    Data from official source only (pilot notes test datasheets and so)
    Spit IX - 109 G1
    weight (full fuel and ammo): 3377 kg - 3042 kg
    wing area: 22.48 mq - 16.1 mq
    fuel: 386 liters - 400 liters
    engine: Merlin 61 - DB 605 A
    max power: 1409 HP (metric) at 7.16 km (5' power set) - 1230 HP at 7 km (30' power set)
    consumption max cruise set: 364 liters/hour - 331 liters/hour
    climb: at 6096 m. in 6' 30'' (the plane was 15 kg over the weight but w/o guns drag, climbing power 60' set) - at 6000 m. in 5'42'' (combat power 30' set)
    climb: at 12192 m. in 20' 12'' (as above) - at 12000 m. 24' 2'' (it is not same plane of above)
    max level speed: 649 km/h at 8315 m. (5' power set, plane as above ) - 660 km/h at 7000 m. (30' power set)

    some gustav had GM-1 for high quote operations (maybe standard for G-1) it's give +30 km/h at 8000 m. and + 40 km/h at 10000m.

    weapon 4 Browning .303 (350 rounds each) 2 Hispano II (125 rounds each) - 2 MG 17 (500 rounds each) 1 MG 151/20 (200 rounds).

    Your opinion ? what's the best?
     
  2. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    Very few Bf-109G2 were operational in 1942. Generally spoken, they were slower, slower climbing, had less acceleration and handling than the Bf-109F4. In 1942, the -109F4 was already cleared to 1.42 ata, while the -g2 was derated to 1.30 ata and thus had less performance. The -f4 was also the more numerous fighter variant.
    This also allows a better comparison as now both power ratings are for 5 min.
     
  3. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    maybe but more gustav that spit IX

    this is a advantage for luftwaffe their old fighter was ~good like the new of RAF.
    I comparate gustavs and IXs because they were the newest models go to unit near the same time (gustav slight before)
     
  4. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    a data
    1st august 1942 only 2 squadron (max ~40 fighters) on Spit IX and 268 Gustavs with jagdwaffe
     
  5. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    Since You have specified 1942, the Spitfire IX is likely an F IX with Merlin 61, cleared to +15 lbs boost/in^2.

    With that engine both planes appear to be evenly matched -performancewise- from sealevel to the Spitfire´s MS gear FTH (ca. 5000m). From there to ca. 8000m the lag between MS and FS gear gives the gustav an advantage, above ca. 8000m, the Spitfire holds an advantage (unless the gustav is equipped with GM-1, of course...).
     
  6. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    #6 Vincenzo, Mar 13, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
    AFAIK:
    at MS gear FTH IX run 612 km/h, gustav ~630 km/h,
    at FS FTH gear IX run 649 km/h, gustav ~650 km/h,
    at DB 605 FTH gustav run 660 km/h spit IX 615 km/h.
    Spit IX climb at 6096 m in 6' 30'', gustav at 6000 5' 42'' (or 5' 14'' in other test).
    IX at 7804 m in 8' 54'', gustav at 8000 in 8' 30'' (7' 46'' other test)
    IX at 10058 m in 12' 24'', gustav a 10000 in 11' 54'' (it's the other test no data for the first test)
    IX at 10973 m. in 14' 42'', gustav at 11000 in 15' 41'' (as above)
    IX at 12192 m. in 20' 12'' gustav at 12000 in 24' 02'' (as above)

    So i can see gustav is fastest until 7500 m. after speed it's near until 11000 (at 10973 IX run at 621 km/h gustav run at ~615 km/h), over no data.
    gustav climb best until 10000 m. after Spit IX go fast. With GM-1 gustav go best at all quote. (i writed gustav but obv i talking of G-1/2 only)
     
  7. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    Hello Vincenzo
    Spitfire F Mk IX Test BF274 says that Spit F IX climbed to 6096 m in 5' 36" at Combat rating, that is backed up by a test report.

    And how fast was G-2, some German reports say 650km/h, some 660km/h.

    Juha
     
  8. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    The follwoing graph is composed from all Spit FIX-tests aviable at Mike Williams site (all with radiator flap closed) and all Bf-109G1/2/4 tests aviable at Kurfürst site (Erla tests corrected for radiator flap position). It shows an average speed curve for both planes as evidenced by the aforementioned tests. Since there are more Bf-109 tests, the standart deviation is larger for that type, too (not shown here but in an older thread). At the bottomline, the Bf-109G2 could mainten it´s top speed for a longer duration (30 minutes instead of 5) but otherwise both planes are evenly matched.
     

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  9. Kurfürst

    Kurfürst Banned

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    As of 1 August 1942 (figures 31 August), Bf 109s with first line LW units:

    Bf 109E types: 83 (almost all in backwater areas like Finnland or Norway) (36)
    Bf 109F-1/F-2: 188 (137)
    Bf 109F-4: 288 (255)
    Bf 109G: 215 (304)

    Of the G models, as of August 1942, the G-1 and G-1/R2 pressurized, GM-1 equipped models (52 at the start of the month, 68 by the end of the month) were all deployed in the Western theatre in France and NW Germany.

    G-2 were all deployed in Russia, but by the end of the month a single one was deployed in France, and some 28 in the MTO, in Sicily.

    IMHO the graph by delcyros shows the relative level speed performance characteristics very well. There are some worser and better figures for both aircraft of course, but generally it is true that the Bf 109G was superior to the Mk IX F of 1942 up to 8000m, especially in climb.

    Above 8000 m the Mk IX, by the virtue of the its high altitude engine was a better fighter. Here however it should be mentioned that in the period Mk IXs were only present in England, and the Bf 109Gs they would face in France would be Bf 109G-1s with GM-1 high altitude boosts, not G-2s, and GM-1 would be needed to factored in.

    And while GM-1 was not an instant-boost to performance (the system needed a few seconds to come to life), it provided a massive power increase above rated altitude. I am quite certain that with GM - 1 factored in, the Gustav was quite superior at high altitude - to give some idea of the performance, tests show that 680 km/h could be achieved with GM-1 injection on the Bf 109G-1/R2 at 1,3ata.
     
  10. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    Hello Delcyros
    thanks a lot for the comparasion graph!

    Combat rating Spit F IX __________Bf 109G-1, from Kennblatt
    Climb to 3048m 2’42”____________to 3000m 2’24”
    _____to 5486m 5’00”
    _____to 6096m 5’36”_____________to 6000m 5’14”
    _____to 7010m 6'36______________to 7000m 6'23"
    _____to 9144m 9’12”_____________to 9000m 9’36”
    _____to 10973m 12’36”___________to 11000m 15’41”
    _____to 12192m 16’36”___________to 12000m 24’02”

    IMHO G-1 clearly without GM1. With it G-1 would have climbed slower below FTH (weight) and clearly better above FTH (more power).

    ADDITION: Tried to look the weight of GM1 system from Fernández-Sommerau's Bf 109 Recognition Manual and noticed that he claims that GM1 system was removed from 109G-1.
     
  11. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    i used same test of BS274 (BF it's a wrong in paint on plane) with climb rating, combat rating was cleared only for 5'.
    Report of 649 km/h it's for a plane w/o full retractable tailwheel and for luftwaffe document this a penalty of 12 km/h at FTH
     
  12. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    same source I used for data.
    i used data for BS274 on williams site for IX and Datenblatt für Me 109 G-1 Ausführung and Kennblatt für Flugzeugmuster Bf 109 G-1 mit Motor DB 605A on Kurfurst site for gustav, what you used?
     
  13. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    i found this as 1st august
    24 with I/1
    13 with 11/2 (eleven not II)
    15 with 11/26 (as above)
    40 with I/52
    5 with II/52
    33 with III/52
    9 with 15/52
    37 with I/53
    39 with I/54
    37 with II/54
    16 with III/54
    (and 11 at rechlin komand i haven't counted this in total of 268)
     
  14. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    What strikes me is the DB605 engine has a nice smooth power curve. The RR Merlin engine has a large jag at about 15,000 feet. That has to give the Me-109 an advantage around that altitude.
     
  15. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    Speed

    Spit IX (from BS274 test)
    1829 m. 544 km/h
    2438 m. 559 km/h
    3048 m. 574 km/h
    3962 m. 595 km/h
    4694 m. 612 km/h
    6096 m. 612 km/h
    7010 m. 615 km/h
    7620 m. 630 km/h
    8352 m. 649 km/h
    9144 m. 647 km/h
    10058 m. 641 km/h
    10973 m. 621 km/h

    G-1 (datenblatt)
    0 m. 535 km/h
    2000 m. 583 km/h
    4000 m. 624 km/h
    6000 m. 647 km/h
    7000 m. 660 km/h
    10000 m. 638 km/h

    G-1 (kennblatt, w/o semi rectr. tailwhell= -12 km/h at FTH)
    0 m. 525 km/h
    1000 m. 544 km/h
    2000 m. 563 km/h
    3000 m. 583 km/h
    4000 m. 602 km/h
    5000 m. 622 km/h
    6000 m. 642 km/h
    7000 m. 649 km/h (FTH +12 =661 km/h)
    8000 m. 648 km/h
    9000 m. 643 km/h
    10000 m. 630 km/h
    11000 m. 609 km/h
    12000 m. 555km/h
     
  16. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    Hello Vincenzo
    now in combat situation Spit pilot would probably have used combat rating, wouldn't he. Messerschmitt's problem was that DB 605 had rather bad early problems and its t/o and emergency power (1,42 ata) was soon barred and was allowed again for a short time around July 43 and then barred again and then finally allowed in Oct/Nov 43 in LW.

    Hello Dave
    the nice power curve of DB 605 was because of its ingenious hydraulic coupling for the supercharger impeller, like in DB 601.

    Juha
     
  17. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    yes but only for 5' minutes so can't take the 20000' with combat he need switched to climbing rating before. or more easily he used the combat rating only in dogfighting so he climbed only for a short time before of change manouvre
     
  18. Kurfürst

    Kurfürst Banned

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    It is because the supercharger speed was driven via a hydraulic clutch and adjusted accoring to the supercharger needs on the DB engines.
     
  19. Kurfürst

    Kurfürst Banned

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    Apparantly I missed some, need to check again! 8)
     
  20. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    Saw you don't reply at what you used for build the graph, i try to ask how you build the grapf? on Williams site there are only 2 test for Spit IX with merlin 61 and one (BS 428) it's for a plane in underweight (~500 pounds). there are many test on Kurfuerst site on gustav but the most give only a point speed.
     
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