1937 Fw-190 proposal powered by DB601 engine.

[shaba]

'The Fw159 was powered by a 680 hp Jumo 210 D power plant'
yes but the fw 259 was to be powered by the db601 engine and have a low cantilever wing. asyou can see in this linked page it shows the early fw190 with the same landing gear as the 159. why they would retain such feature when it caused so much trouble is beyond me but tank might just have wanted to use something they put alot of time and effort into rather than start from scratch.http://www.hobbybokhandeln.se/j22/tradestudies.htm

 

[zoomar]

It's not just internet sources that mention alternate proposals. Green states this in his "Warplanes of the 3rd Reich" I know this is old, but Green was a serious aviation historian even if he may not have had access to the most thorough primary information when he researched this work. As to accepting Tank's account as gospel, individual people often find many reasons to "forget" things when writing memoirs and in interviews. Not saying that his recollection was wrong or a deliberiate lie, but it wouldn't be the first time in history a "horses mouth" was not that reliable.

My own personal view is that Focke Wulf probably did tender an alternate liquid-cooled concept design for what eventually became the "Fw-190" for many of the same reasons given by Davebender even though it was pretty much a given the RLM wanted a radial powerplant. However, I also suspect such a "design" was probably little more than a pencil sketch and performance estimates submitted for comparason purposes

 

[zoomar]

'The Fw159 was powered by a 680 hp Jumo 210 D power plant'
yes but the fw 259 was to be powered by the db601 engine and have a low cantilever wing. asyou can see in this linked page it shows the early fw190 with the same landing gear as the 159. why they would retain such feature when it caused so much trouble is beyond me but tank might just have wanted to use something they put alot of time and effort into rather than start from scratch.New Page 2

Buried in the J-22 article is the statement that the Swedes initially were interested in buying A6Ms from Japan, but the deal fell thu because Japan couldn't guarantee delivery! Wow!

Off topic, I know, but is this just unsupported speculation by the author or something that was really a possibility? How cool and wierd if Sweden armed itself with Japanese fighters.

 

[stona]

You've got to watch your time frames. It is important to remember when Focke-Wulf were told that the Daimler Benz production was effectively reserved for Messerschmitt.
The Fw259 was "Fw.259, Weiterentwicklung der Fw.159, mit D.B.601"( Fw.259, advancement of the Fw.159, with D.B.601) according to Bruno Lange in "Typenhandbuch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik". That explains the landing gear. The Fw159 is essentially a scaled up Fw56 to start with,and was built to a 1934 RLM specification which included the Jumo 210 power plant.
The Fw159 first flew in 1935,I don't have a date (yet) of the Fw259 proposal but I bet it was before Tank had been told that the Daimler Benz engines would not be available for the Fw187 or any other upcoming projects.The Fw259 proposal cannot be seen as a precursor of the Fw190,which started life in 1938,designed around a radial engine. In 1938 Focke-Wulf certainly knew that they would not be seeing any Daimler Benz engines anytime soon.

With that I will bow out and await the publication of a 1938 Focke-Wulf proposal for a Daimler Benz powered single seat,single engined,fighter which can be definitely linked to the Fw190. I'll even take one in 1937 Happy hunting.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Milosh]

In Focke-Wulf Fw190A by Herman/Leverenz/Weber, the spec for a single engine, single seat pursuit fighter

1. Short production times with design optimization for large scale ,

2. Maximum reliability through the elimination of liquid cooling,

3. Ease of service through good accessibility to the entire engine system and accessories,

4. Good protection for the pilot in the main direction of fire.

This spec was issued in 1937.

Now why would Tank want a liquid cooled engine when the spec said no liquid cooled engine?

Chief Engineer Rudolf Blaser was responsible for the design of the Fw190 from the first prototype to the Ta152.

 

[stona]

Thanks Milosh,I have that book but missed the obvious....again!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Jenisch]

So, why Tank choose the Jumo 213 and DB for the Fw 190D/Ta-152 models, improvisation? At the same time the Germans were developing a 2,400 hp version of the BMW 801 by the war's end.

 

[stona]

Maybe the "developing" is the key word.
Dietmar Harmann writes.
"By the end of 1942 it had become apparent that there would be no significant improvement in the BMW 801 radial engine as installed in the Fw190A fighter in the near future.
Kurt Tank therefore called for the construction of variants of the Fw190 powered by more powerful engines..........
Alternative designs were produced in order to achieve a result as quickly as possible. The later developments were based on these so called Ra (mathematical prospectus) designs. The designs Fw190Ra1 to Fw190Ra6 were presented to the RLMs's Technical Office in the spring (of '43) and were based on the new Junkers Jumo 213 and Daimler Benz DB 603 liquid cooled,in-line engines"

The key here is again the dates. The engines were selected in late 1942/early 1943.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Jenisch]

Thanks for the info Stona. Any reason for the "delay" of the liquid cooled 190s? By mid 1943 the Soviets were already with the La-5FN in production, which was very dangerous to the contemporany Fw 190 models, while the Americans were already starting to field fighters that simply outclassed the 190 in high altitude. My impression is that by mid '43 the Germans should already have Fw 190 D and the MW-50 Bf 109s in good numbers.

 

[riacrato]

I don't have the book though Harmann is an expert when it comes to the FW. But I wonder how the Fw 190 C prototypes with DB603, built, flown and ordered in EARLY TO MID 1942, fit into that picture (later cancelled for unknown reasons).

 

[stona]

In simple terms it was a combination of development problems and hesitation by the RLM.
Focke-Wulf first applied for development priority for a standard version of the Ta152 (designated Ta152A) as early as 8 Oct 1943. The application was rejected as was incidentally that for the Me262A. The RLM was avoiding favouring a new type. The application was resubmitted in December 1943 and at a meeting between the RLM and Focke-Wulf on 13 Jan 1944 was again rejected. The RLM was still prevaricating over whether or not to proceed with the Me209. It was only when the Messerschmitt design was finally removed from the procurement program that the door was opened for the Ta152 high altitude fighter. The Ta152A was struck off (only three prototypes were built) and development effort was concentrated on the Ta152H.
By now a year had been wasted.
It was,as is often said,too little,too late.

Cheers
Steve

Edit,the Fw190C didn't really work,there were a lot of problems mating the Daimler Benz engine with the airframe. I believe (without checking) that Tank had a battle with the RLM to even retain the possibility of a Daimler Benz engine in some versions of the Ta152.

 

[davebender]

The reason is obvious if you examine production numbers for the DB603 engine. You cannot use DB603 engines if none are available.

 

[riacrato]

They were scheduled to enter production about the same time other DB 603 powered planes entered such as the Me 410. Non-availability was certainly not the issue, rather faulty priorities. More likely, they were cancelled because the need for an Me 110 replacement after the 210 flop was seen as more urgent than a new fighter. It is mid-42 and Fw 190 As and Bf 109 F G are still considered top-of-the-line compared to their contemporaries in east and west. Another speculation is that the DB 603 was earmarked for the ill-fated Me 309 which was yet to fly and looked great on paper.

 

[riacrato]

Edit,the Fw190C didn't really work,there were a lot of problems mating the Daimler Benz engine with the airframe.

Says who? Certainly not Dietmar Harmann who has written several articles sourced from original documents about the FW 190 V13-16 and they showed great performance without any real problems.

 

[davebender]

U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Aircraft Division Industry Report
Apparently you are unfamiliar with historical DB603 engine production numbers. The above web site has that data.

 

[tomo pauk]

The engine production graph, for the site Dave is pointing at:

http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/images/ussbs/figvii-3.jpg