2nd BG color markings in 2nd half of 1944

[seesul]

Hello to all,

I have a question on all the experts on marking and modellers. I´m interested in marking of the Forts of all the squadrons of 2nd BG. In particular in the stripes on the wings and moving parts of the tail (rudder and elevator). In the book B-17 Flying Fotress in Color by Steve Birdsdall I read following:

- 2 feet wide blue stripes on all the machines (outlined by white on machines with camo)
- moving parts of the tail (rudder and elevator) in blue on the machines without camo and in white on the machines with camo

On all the b&w photos I´ve seen the stripes on the wings and finishing of the tail moving parts look like being in black color and I have also seen many profiles and modells made in black. For sure it´s not easy to estimate the color from b&w photos so the question is if they were black or blue.

Does anyone know what was the real color of the stripes on the wings (all machines) and moving parts of the tail (no camo machines)? A part from the book attached.

Thank you and nice day to all!

 

[seesul]

This is what I mean.

 

[seesul]

Another mention of the blue color. From the book Camouflage&markings Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress U.S.A.A.C & AAF 1937-1945.

 

[Airframes]

The tonal reproduction in the photo you posted certainly suggests blue, Roman.
Given that the lettering on the fin is the standard black, then the rudder, and stripes, appear to closely match the blue of the star and bar insignia.

 

[Wurger]

I agree with Terry. The slight difference in tone of the blue markings and black lettering ican be quite well noticed.

 

[seesul]

Thank you Terry and Wojtek, also my opinion. I wish I had a color pic of 2nd BG Fort but I don't have it. And also no parts that could confirm the blue color. Blue parts on tail were made of fabric and burnt out at the crashes and I don´t know about any wing part with the part of the blue band left from 'our' battle.
Anyhow, attached a profile that I found yesterday so I´m apparently not the only one who was thinking about the blue color...

 

[Wurger]

Here is a shot of the bomber seen in the porfile above.

and here a couple images of other bombers of the 2nd BG ...

the one is quite interesting because the difference between the black markings and the blue rudder can be seen very nicely. ALso the blue painted elevators can be noticed.

The pic source: B-17 Flying Fortress part 3 | World War Photos

 

[seesul]

Thank you Wojtek, the last pic is the nicest one. One more pic

 

[Wurger]

A nice shot Roman.

Here is an enlarged image of the B-17 seen in the second pic in the post #7.

and two more found at: Second Bomb Group

 

[seesul]

So black or blue?

 

[Wurger]

As far as the rudder and elevators are concerned for sure blue.. but these strips on wings look like being black though. Here is the same shot you posted in #2. I found enlarge copy if it and clipped it to the area in question. Now it can be better notice that the colour of the rudder is different from the signs and digits on the fin. These are in full sunlight so no doubt these are of two different colours. Regarding the strip on the wing... the rear part of the marking at the wing underside can suggest the same colour seen on the rudder. But it is the light trick I would say. The part of the wing is in the shadow and the matt or semi-matt colour can give the appearance because of the distance from the photographer taking the image. But the part at the leading edge is closer and in the sunlight. As a result it looks much darker there. It may indicate the darker colour there, in the case the black one.

The very similar effect you may notice in the enlarged pic attached as the last in post #7. The starboard wing strip is much lighter than the port one. Again it is the result of difference in the distance from the camera although both strips seem to be in the wing shadow. But if you compare the port strip with the bottoms of the elevators you may notice the different tone. The elevators are much closer to the photographer than the port wing so these should have been as dark as the strip but these aren't though. What is more the tone of the port wing strip is almost the same as the one of the sign on the fin. Therefore I would say these strips on wings look like being black.

 

[seesul]

Thank you Wojtek, let´s see another opinions and I´ll also open the same thread on FB in the B-17 modeller' s group.

 

[Wurger]

OK.

 

[Crimea_River]

Dana Bell in his "Air Force Colors Volume 2 ETO & MTO 1942-1945" says the markings were black.

 

[Dana Bell]

Dana Bell in his "Air Force Colors Volume 2 ETO & MTO 1942-1945" says the markings were black.

This thread has bothered me since it opened -- I know I said black, and Roger and Steve said blue, but I can't be certain I was right. I had a 4x5 color transparency from a Fifteenth AF history down at Maxwell, but now I can't find that trannie anywhere. It's been 37 years since I wrote that book, so I hesitate to trust my memory on those colors. Anyway, I'm deep in another project right now, so I've no idea when I might be able to track down the transparency. Wish I could offer better evidence, either way...

Cheers,



Dana

 

[seesul]

Thank you Crimea and Dana. No problem at all. I´ve never realized before that this color could have been other than black. But Roger and Steve made me thinking about it and that´s the way it happened. Let´s keep this thread running to see if we will come to some conclussion.

 

[seesul]

Btw Dana, are you in touch with the authors of those two above mentioned books?
At least Steve Birdsall used to be active on old version of armyairforces.com but this web doesn´t exist anymore...

 

[Dana Bell]

Hi Seesul,

I've been out of touch with Steve for many years -- all my fault, since I can't seem to keep up with correspondence. We lost Roger a few years ago.

Cheers,



Dana

 

[seesul]

Thank you Dana. I asked 2nd BG vets assn as well and will share their comments when available.

 

[Namvet45]

Keep in mind that many of these photos will have been made with red, orange, or yellow filters on the camera in order to improve contrast; all of those filters would have the effect of making anything blue appear closer to black in the final print.