A B-52 bomber in time for D-Day? (1 Viewer)

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Keslerian

Recruit
7
2
Aug 5, 2016
Some of you may have read the Axis of Time trilogy by John Birmingham. The series was about a fleet of warships from the year 2021. Due to a freak accident, they get sent back through time to June 2, 1942. Just before the battle of Midway. Their arrival changes the entire course of World War II. Among other things, Germany and the USSR make peace, and Japan decides to invade Australia. Profound cultural and scientific changes result from the 'emergence.'

Meanwhile, the military personnel from the 21st century agree to co-operate with the Allys, in order to bring the war to an end sooner. Among other things, the 'downtime' Americans immediately begin working on the B-52 bomber program. They make such rapid progress that a handful of prototypes are ready within 24 months. This didn't arouse my suspicions the first time I read the trilogy, years ago...

But now, this plot point strikes me as highly unfeasible! Since I'm not an expert on aircraft design, I'd like to get opinions from the posters here. My question to you is this: Would it be possible (from an engineering standpoint) for the Americans to begin work on the B-52 program in June of 1942? And to get combat ready prototypes in time for D-Day?

In my opinion, full blue-prints for the aircraft and its engines would undoubtedly be a big help for these guys. But the crude manufacturing technologys of the early 40's might not be up to the task... After all, the heavy press program was crucial in enabling the designers to utilise the most efficient wing shape possible. Without those huge forging machines, it would be alot harder.
 
Completely impossible to build a B-52 in 1944 even with the blueprints. The technology to make the engines did not exist, and it would take years to develop.

We're talking about the J57 engines used on the early B-52 variants, right? Would you be able to elaborate what technologys were required to make them?
 
In that series they also explained - without going into detail - that they used the technology from 2021 to build highly automated factories, which were compared to The Terminator movies in sophistication. The B-52 was designed circa 1950-51. I recall unfolding a B-52 component drawing, looking at the data on it, and telling the other engineers there that I could not work on it because it predated my birth (they were unimpressed with my reasoning but advised me not to drool on the drawings).

In terms of materials and other technology of 1942 the B-52 and its J-57 engines could be built. You need aluminum, steel, stainless steel and nickle alloys and all were available in abundance. No TI or composites required. Presumably they could have gone direct to the B-52 and J-57 and avoided the B-50, B-36, B-47, and numerous development steps and missteps along the way.

Do it in essentially 2 years? I donno. But five years is dead easy and three years very likely.

By the way, they also built a lot of F-86's, UH-1's, and AC-47's.
 
In that series they also explained - without going into detail - that they used the technology from 2021 to build highly automated factories, which were compared to The Terminator movies in sophistication. The B-52 was designed circa 1950-51. I recall unfolding a B-52 component drawing, looking at the data on it, and telling the other engineers there that I could not work on it because it predated my birth (they were unimpressed with my reasoning but advised me not to drool on the drawings).

Yeah, I remember that part. It comes off as an unconvincing hand wave, though. Why would the Navy have a bunch of manufacturing tech on board their ships? The fleet from 2021 was a pure combat force, there weren't any cargo ships that would be hauling stuff like that around. I could understand if they had some 3D printers on board or what not. But theres no way they would have a bunch of advanced machine toolst.

So really, the Boeing engineers would have to rely exclusively on the technology that already existed in 1942. Or at least, whatever manufacturing tech they could bootstrap their way to within the given time frame. Would it be possible for them to construct those big forging presses? From my understanding, they were necessary for the wing assemblys.

In terms of materials and other technology of 1942 the B-52 and its J-57 engines could be built. You need aluminum, steel, stainless steel and nickle alloys and all were available in abundance. No TI or composites required. Presumably they could have gone direct to the B-52 and J-57 and avoided the B-50, B-36, B-47, and numerous development steps and missteps along the way.

Do it in essentially 2 years? I donno. But five years is dead easy and three years very likely.

By the way, they also built a lot of F-86's, UH-1's, and AC-47's.

If you had to go out on a limb, what part of the engine would be the hardest to recreate using 1940s tech? Don't the turbine blades for a jet engine require fairly high tolerances?

Like you said, doing it all in just 24 months seems like quite a stretch!

Honestly, I think they would have an easier time building the engine for an AC-47 than for a B-52. A radial engine is easier to build than an axial flow jet engine. The Americans didn't build any of those during WW2 (except for the J31 engines, arguably). Somewhat ironically, the Germans had the lead in that department.
 
If you are just handing a blue print to someone else with no knowledge to build you also need to hand over all the material specs and from them all the testing specs for everything used, then get some very clever people and set them going reading for a month or perhaps a year:lol:

When the Russians reverse engineered the B-29 they didn't have the gauge of aluminium so they made it a little heavier and they didn't reverse engineer the engines.
 
The US Navy has computer controlled manufacturing capabilities on its ships right now, and have had for decades. They have Haas computer controlled machines on board, which makes a sailor who is able to read a manual a pretty good machinist.

But they could have taken the technology they had available and built computer controlled manufacturing equipment. They had automated manufacturing equipment in WWII as it was. Biggest problem with anything they did would be how much to improve it versus leaving it alone. For example, I think I'd build the B-49 rather than the B-52. The computer controlled stability augmentation systems likely would have solved the problems with the flying wing. Going straight to the B-2 would be hard to do, but the B-49 should be pretty easy.

I've often wondered what I could do to help if I went back to 1942. What could I do other than telling them what to focus on that they were soon going to do anyway? Now, a whole force of advanced ships showing up is a different situation.
 
There was a movie made along these lines a couple of decades or so ago, where a CVN weirdly intruded into
the waters of Hawaii in early Dec `41, & the skipper had to agonise about not using F-14s to waste Nagumo's fleet..
 
The US Navy has computer controlled manufacturing capabilities on its ships right now, and have had for decades. They have Haas computer controlled machines on board, which makes a sailor who is able to read a manual a pretty good machinist.

Hmm, I didn't know that. You learn something new every day! But with that said, these aren't exactly huge machines. Theres a limit on the kindof work they can do. Presumably, the Haas machines wouldn't be able to work on really large components.

But they could have taken the technology they had available and built computer controlled manufacturing equipment. They had automated manufacturing equipment in WWII as it was. Biggest problem with anything they did would be how much to improve it versus leaving it alone. For example, I think I'd build the B-49 rather than the B-52. The computer controlled stability augmentation systems likely would have solved the problems with the flying wing. Going straight to the B-2 would be hard to do, but the B-49 should be pretty easy.

Could they have? I'm not so sure. CNC machines from the 70s-80s onward used microchips to control their functions. That means integrated circuits, and millions of transistors. You can't build microchips in the 1940s, its flat out impossible. You need to master the planar process first, so you can effectively mass produce transistors. Then you need a new kind of microscope in order to view the chip architecture. Etcetera. Anything to do with modern computers requires multiple technological breakthroughs that cannot be achieved in the time frame of WW2.

Outside of that domain, though, the downtime Americans would have more options available to them. They could make incremental improvements to their own machine tools, maybe on to models running off punched tape. I have no idea what they'd need to make the J57 engines, though. Would you be willing to hazard a guess?

I've often wondered what I could do to help if I went back to 1942. What could I do other than telling them what to focus on that they were soon going to do anyway? Now, a whole force of advanced ships showing up is a different situation.

Yeah, its a tough call. The fight against the Japanese went about as well as can be expected. And as for the Germans, their fate depended mostly on how they dealt with the Soviet Union. The Americans and British didn't have much influence on the eastern front (beyond lend lease).
 
Kaslerian, I agree about computer technology, not going to happen in WW2.

I have no idea what they'd need to make the J57 engines, though. Would you be willing to hazard a guess?

Similar with 1950s and 60s jet engines. The materials used and temps and pressures achieved didn't happen overnight. It came from an evolutionary process that began before WW2, therefore things needed to happen first. Running before you can crawl never works. There are examples in history of technological advance way ahead of its time failing. AA Griffith's compressor designs for RR are an example. RR built one and found they couldn't get it to work because the materials were not up to the task of doing what was required. You can't build the Space Shuttle without having built the A4 rocket first.
 
There was a movie made along these lines a couple of decades or so ago, where a CVN weirdly intruded into
the waters of Hawaii in early Dec `41, & the skipper had to agonise about not using F-14s to waste Nagumo's fleet..

The Final Countdown.

The captain did authorize an attack against the Japanese fleet, but the storm returned and whisked them back to their original time, leaving one crew member behind.
 
Similar with 1950s and 60s jet engines. The materials used and temps and pressures achieved didn't happen overnight. It came from an evolutionary process that began before WW2, therefore things needed to happen first. Running before you can crawl never works. There are examples in history of technological advance way ahead of its time failing. AA Griffith's compressor designs for RR are an example. RR built one and found they couldn't get it to work because the materials were not up to the task of doing what was required. You can't build the Space Shuttle without having built the A4 rocket first.

The processes involved in manufacturing the turbine and compressor blades was not really available in the US in 1942, or anywhere. These processes were in the very early stages of development in 1942.
 
Cheers Wayne, yeah - that's the one..

& @ N-man, are you suggesting that an SS Colonel ( Dr von Braun) could be induced to defect..
..prior to using his A4/V2 - in an 'honest attempt' - to lay waste to London, as a final 'proof of concept'?
 
The processes involved in manufacturing the turbine and compressor blades was not really available in the US in 1942, or anywhere. These processes were in the very early stages of development in 1942.

SS Colonel Dr von Braun might have been able to help with that one too, his fuel-delivery turbo-pump tech,
& high-temp, supersonic-proven metallurgical knowledge - was 'state of the art' - at that time..
 
I wonder if something like an A6 would be more useful and less difficult for the times?

Obviously the range is the problem compared with the B-52. And the engine issue is the same (when the XP-59 first flew its engines gave 2 x 1,300lbf thrust, the A6 needs 2 x 9,000lbf and the B-52 8 x 10,000lbf).

But if you still have bases in the UK, the A6 would give the Germans a lot of strife.

And, if you are being ambitious, you could also build versions of the A6 for buddy refueling systems, extending the reach into Russia.

Once you have secured, at least part of, Europe, you could head down through India, Malaysia and Indonesia to take back Australia (if Japan's invasion had been successful).
 
In terms of size, the A6 is not much bigger than the TBF Avenger. Smaller wingspan, slightly longer and higher. Though it is 3.5 times as heavy when fully loaded. So it could prossibly work on the larger US carriers, though the equipment would not be up to launching or arresting it.
 
The V-2 engines did not use much in the way of high temp materials. The Germans did not have access to those ores. Rather than using a gas generator to drive the turbopump turbine they used H202, which is a much colder reaction and meant the V-2 engine did not need as much in the way of nickle. That same problem killed their jet fighter program.

And there is nothing needed to build the B-52 in 1952 that was not available in 1942. If you suppose that the later knowledge as to alloys and designs are supplied, you are there. The big question is: would you even build a B-52 or something better?

The transistor was accidentally discovered in 1921 and invented in 1946. A four year advancement - and then some - in that technology would be trivial to implement. And computers do not have to be the size of a paperback book to work.
 
Instead of a B-52 program why not kick start the B-36 program. You wouldn't have to worry about a jet engine and a fleet of B-36's in 1944 would have been pretty devastating. If it was found that a jet engine could be produced later than use the B-36 fuselage and produce a B-60
 

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