A6M2 Zero Vs. ME 109

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Vassili Zaitzev, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. Vassili Zaitzev

    Vassili Zaitzev Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,099
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Substitute teacher; graduate student
    Location:
    Connecticut, United States
    I have read about these axis planes and heard they were good. Now the question is who will come out the victor in a dogfight.
     
  2. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,203
    Likes Received:
    786
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Under 300 mph - the zero, and this depends on pilot skill...
     
  3. Hunter368

    Hunter368 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    In a dogfight ? I would think that no smart pilot (from and nation in any WW2 plane) would ever "dogfight" a Zero. Most often a dogfight is at lower speeds (under 300mph) and this is where the Zero excelled. Not sure if and mono-wing plane could match the Zero's maneuverability in a "dogfight". But that USA pilots learned that and never tried to dogfight it. They used that and waive tactics and hit and run. Dogfighting a Zero under 300mph (where most dogfights happen) was suicide. SO to answer you, mostly the Zero under 300 mph and above 300 the 109, but like Joe says the pilot skills play a huge part also. Also depends on who gets the first attack, in a head on attack the 109 stands a better chance of winning.
     
  4. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Japan
    About the only monoplanes that cold match the Zero were certain other Japanese types (Ki-43-I, A5M and Ki-27), the Soviet I-16 and possibly the Polish Pz.11. None of these planes had the speed, climb, range or heavy armament of the Zero though, so the Zero wins out overall.

    The earliest Zeros would be faced with 109Fs, which had a 60mph advantage in speed and better than 500 feet/minute advantage in climb and superior engine power at altitude. The Zero would have to sucker the 109s into low level, horizontal turn fight. Above about 310 mph the Zero suffered from EXTREEMLY heavy alierons and quite heavy elevators. All that low speed manouverability came from very large alierons and elevators, which hamper high speed manouvers.
     
  5. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,203
    Likes Received:
    786
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    You also have to think about fighting in the vertical - again I think the 109 will come out ahead...
     
  6. Hunter368

    Hunter368 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    I agree Joe, the hit and run vertical attack that Germans used would prove decisive.
     
  7. alejandro_

    alejandro_ Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I fully agree. We should also remember that the advantage of the Bf-109F will increase as height increases. This wan't a problem in the Pacific or Eastern Front, where combats took place below 15000 ft, but in Western Europe...

    The Bf-109F is also better protected and has self-sealing fuel tanks, and is superior in diving.

    Regards.
     
  8. Vassili Zaitzev

    Vassili Zaitzev Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,099
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Substitute teacher; graduate student
    Location:
    Connecticut, United States
    Thanks for your opinions guys.
     
  9. cheddar cheese

    cheddar cheese Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    20,349
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    WSM, England
    Dont forget the Reggiane Re.2000, which would give it a good run for its money...the poor armament may let it down, but on a Zero at least the 2x 12.7mm will still do enough damage.
    The range is far inferior, but in a pure dogfight, range wouldnt count for so much...
     
  10. schwarzpanzer

    schwarzpanzer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I wonder how the Yak's, Macchi's and Spit/Hurri's fit in?

    I know later Itaian fighters had MG 151/20's, changing the armament from crap to great.
     
  11. loomaluftwaffe

    loomaluftwaffe Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,864
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    3 MG151s to be precise
    werent the British dudes uing Hurricanes when they got slaughtered by Zeros?
     
  12. R988

    R988 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Office Gimp
    Location:
    Londonium
    Yeah in Ceylon, with MkII(b, i think) Hurricanes, the whole thing was a shambles though as they never had much chance.
    http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/ceylon2.html

    They also operated in Burma and later with the AVG I think.


    BF109 has massive armament though, imagine what those Mk108s or 103s would do to a Zero, even one shell :shock:
     
  13. Vassili Zaitzev

    Vassili Zaitzev Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,099
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Substitute teacher; graduate student
    Location:
    Connecticut, United States
    the british in Singapore were also using F2A buffalo fighters against the zero, I don't think the buffalos had much of a a chance against the Zekes, it can down to the pilot.
     
  14. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,203
    Likes Received:
    786
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    The Brits didn't fare well against the Zero because of tactics - and many of the aircraft they encountered over Burma were actually Oscars...
     
  15. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    11,985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    True. Even the first Spitfires to enter the CBI in 1943 had to get used to the Japanese turners. But quickly overcame, and left the CBI with an 8:1 kill ratio.

    The RAF in the early years were using everything they could get their hands on. And if you look closely it still wasn't as bad as it's made out. Sure, the RAF had to retreat but the Japanese suffered some heavy loss at their hands.
     
  16. Dogwalker

    Dogwalker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    448
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Manziana Field, near Rome
    The difficult thing is to find the real figures of the A6M2, since the currently reported ones seems to be underrated (if they are real, every early series italian fighter was a better climber and a far better diver).
    My impression is that, in 1940, a Zero could outeverything a Macchi C-200, with the only possible exceptions of high speed turn and dive speed.
    In early 1941, the advent of C-202 changed the things. It's prestations were far superior to that of any Zero, apart for the turn rate at slow speed (and certanly the range), it was rugged and well armoured, and the armament was sufficient counter an unarmoured fighter.
    The "5 series" fighters were another thing.
    A close dogfight between a Re-2000 and a Zero could be very interesting.
     
  17. loomaluftwaffe

    loomaluftwaffe Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,864
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    like how much range does the Re.2000 GA (grande autonomia = extended range) have
     
  18. Dogwalker

    Dogwalker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    448
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Manziana Field, near Rome
    With internal fuel only, 1935 km (1201 miles) at 430 Km/h (267 ml/h) at 6000m (20.000 ft) with the maximum takeoff weight.
    The maximum speed was reduced of 10 Km/h, to 520 Km/h.
    The catapultabile version had a maximum range, in the same conditions of speed and quote, of 1290 km (801 ml).
     
  19. Twitch

    Twitch Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    historical combat aviation writer
    Location:
    City of the Angels California
    Moving away from the hardware fixation for a moment we must realize that from 1940-mid-1942 there were no better airmen than those of the Imperial Japanese Navy. This was the time that Sakai, Sasai, Nishizawa and the rest of the best ran wild in the Zero with instances of skilled opposition as rare.
     
  20. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,203
    Likes Received:
    786
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Very True - it seems starting at Midway (June 42) and into the summer months, the USN and USAAF figured out how to effectively challenge the Zero (and other Japanese aircraft), this is apparent in the kills that were starting to mount by the summers' end.

    Many of Japan's best were lost at Midway...
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. Soundbreaker Welch?
    Replies:
    51
    Views:
    10,800
  2. Elvis
    Replies:
    274
    Views:
    50,014
  3. grwhyte
    Replies:
    77
    Views:
    7,877
  4. Vassili Zaitzev
    Replies:
    87
    Views:
    17,997
  5. d_bader
    Replies:
    337
    Views:
    38,921

Share This Page