About those Japanese carrier planes that outranged the American planes.

[NTGray]

I started out writing a different question, but then I discovered that what "everybody knows" doesn't seem to have been true. Specifically, "everybody knows" that Japanese carrier planes outranged American planes, which made it difficult for Admiral Mitscher to strike back at the Japanese fleet following the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, with a large number of our planes running out of gas before making it back home. And I was going to ask why the U.S. Navy settled for inferior range for the newer planes in the Pacific theater.
But then when I looked a few things up, I discovered this about the planes in use in 1944:

Comparative ranges at cruise speed​
A6M Zero 1600 miles	F6F Hellcat 945 miles
B5N Kate 608 miles
B6N Jill 1085 miles	TBF Avenger 905 miles
D3A Val 845 miles
D4Y Judy 910 miles	SB2C Helldiver 1165 miles

According to this, it isn't even true that the Japanese planes outranged the American planes, except for the Zero and Jill. Especially with the older planes, (the Kate and Val) which were still part of the IJN air arm at Philippine Sea; their range was substantially less than the newer American planes'. So why does "everybody know" that Japanese carrier planes outranged American planes? (Or am I the only one who "knows" this, and y'all are laughing at my ignorance?)

 

[Frog]

I started out writing a different question, but then I discovered that what "everybody knows" doesn't seem to have been true. Specifically, "everybody knows" that Japanese carrier planes outranged American planes, which made it difficult for Admiral Mitscher to strike back at the Japanese fleet following the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, with a large number of our planes running out of gas before making it back home. And I was going to ask why the U.S. Navy settled for inferior range for the newer planes in the Pacific theater.
But then when I looked a few things up, I discovered this about the planes in use in 1944:

Comparative ranges at cruise speed​
A6M Zero 1600 miles	F6F Hellcat 945 miles
B5N Kate 608 miles
B6N Jill 1085 miles	TBF Avenger 905 miles
D3A Val 845 miles
D4Y Judy 910 miles	SB2C Helldiver 1165 miles

According to this, it isn't even true that the Japanese planes outranged the American planes, except for the Zero and Jill. Especially with the older planes, (the Kate and Val) which were still part of the IJN air arm at Philippine Sea; their range was substantially less than the newer American planes'. So why does "everybody know" that Japanese carrier planes outranged American planes? (Or am I the only one who "knows" this, and y'all are laughing at my ignorance?)

For both sides, you have to consider the amount of ordnance and gas carried, the course and altitude of the mission, weather conditions, time on target etc... Missions were often not flown straight to the objective.

 

[EwenS]

The figures you give are for range not combat radius. It takes time to prepare and launch a deckload strike (the usual USN practice using about half the available airgroup on each carrier or up to approx 45 aircraft on a CV & 15 on a CVL, less on the 20th June 1944 because of the day's activities), allow them to form up and depart for their strike. Combat time over the target. Return and orbit until they could land on again. And sometimes, as at Philippine Sea the wind isn't blowing in the right direction, meaning the carriers have to increase the distance from the target during the launch and landing phases. Sometimes aircraft need to hold while higher priority aircarf land on. Aircraft crash on deck. It all takes time and burns fuel for which allowance needs to be made at the outset.

Note that Enterprise & Lexington in TG58.3 were still operating the SBD Dauntless.

The Japanese plan for the Battle of the Philippine Sea was, in typical Japanese fashion complicated with Ozawa breaking his force into 3.

Force A - Taiho, Shokaku & Zuikaku, 2 CA, 1 CL and 9DD
Force B - Junyo, Hiyo & Rhuyo, 1 BB, 1CA and 9 DD
Force C - 3 light carriers Chitose, Chiyoda & Zuiho, 4 BB, 7 CA, 1 CL & 6 DD

Force C was to steam about 100-120 miles ahead of the other two, and draw the attention of the TF58 if found. Force A & B would launch their air strike from about 400 miles distant, beyond the range of the US aircraft. They would attack TF58 and, instead of returning to their carriers, would fly on and land on Guam. If TF58 discovered Force C first, and if the aircraft carried by it were to be overwhelmed, the Force A & B strike could if necessary be called off and the fighters diverted to cover Force C while the dive bombers and torpedo planes returned to their carriers. For the survivors from Force A & B on Guam, they could rearm and carry out a further strike on the way home to their parent carriers..

As it turned out US search aircraft had all sorts of difficulties on the night of 18/19 June locating the Japanese and reporting back. The Japanese had equal difficulty.

Typically a US task force would search out to about 250-300 miles. Their morning search on 20 June revealled nothing. At noon another long range search was sent out to 475 miles and took 3 hours. Still nothing. A third search in the afternoon found the Japanese Fleet at the end of the aircraft's 325 mile search distance. Another aircraft also reported with a position 70 miles from the first. When TF58 launched its strike of 240 aircraft (14 returned early with faults) the Japanese Fleet was estimated to be 275 miles distant. Shortly after take off a report placed it at 330 miles distant.

So the aircraft of TF58 were operating at the very limits of their endurance with the result that losses were higher than would normally have been expected.

In earlier carrier battles the IJN had been able to outrange the USN operationally by something like 50 miles IIRC.

 

[Admiral Beez]

So why does "everybody know" that Japanese carrier planes outranged American planes?

I thought only the A6M had the superlative range. I've never read that the rest of the IJN's aircraft had any significant range advantages.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You should also post the ranges for the American contemporaries of the earlier Japanese craft. If you do that, I think you'll see that in the earlier part of the war the Japanese still outranged the Americans. Comparing Vals and Kates to Avengers and Helldivers is to my mind inapt on the technical level.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You should also post the ranges for the American contemporaries of the earlier Japanese craft. If you do that, I think you'll see that in the earlier part of the war the Japanese still outranged the Americans. Comparing Vals and Kates to Avengers and Helldivers is to my mind inapt on the technical level.

I was thinking the same, and was about to suggest that the Dauntless and Devastator must be compared, but then I saw he's asking about aircraft ranges at the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, when both the Dauntless and Devastator were out of service.

 

[EwenS]

I was thinking the same, and was about to suggest that the Dauntless and Devastator must be compared, but then I saw he's asking about aircraft ranges at the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, when both the Dauntless and Devastator were out of service.

The Dauntless was still in service at Philippine Sea as a I noted in my first post. Carried by Enterprise and Lexington. It was their final hurrah from the carrier decks, but remained in front line service from land bases with the USMC until the end of WW2.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I was thinking the same, and was about to suggest that the Dauntless and Devastator must be compared, but then I saw he's asking about aircraft ranges at the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, when both the Dauntless and Devastator were out of service.

The Dauntless was still in service aboard two carriers in that battle.

My contention is that the comments about "longer range" are often made outside the context of PhilSea (especially Midway), and that a more-direct comparison would be more apt.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Dauntless was still in service at Philippine Sea as a I noted in my first post. Carried by Enterprise and Lexington. It was their final hurrah from the carrier decks, but remained in front line service from land bases with the USMC until the end of WW2.

I believe it was Ramage who led his SBD squadron to the only cohesive squadron landing returning from the Flight After Darkness.

 

[NTGray]

The figures you give are for range not combat radius.

I understand that. Take the cruising range, divide in half, then subtract some more for time spent in combat. But the cruise range numbers are still useful as a starting point for comparison.

You should also post the ranges for the American contemporaries of the earlier Japanese craft. If you do that, I think you'll see that in the earlier part of the war the Japanese still outranged the Americans. Comparing Vals and Kates to Avengers and Helldivers is to my mind inapt on the technical level.

I was thinking specifically of the events of June 1944, where there was a mix of newer and older Japanese planes, but according to some of the answers I might have been mistaken to think that there were no SBDs or TBFs present (oops. I meant TBDs).

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I was thinking specifically of the events of June 1944, where there was a mix of newer and older Japanese planes, but according to some of the answers I might have been mistaken to think that there were no SBDs or TBFs present.

Both models were definitively in the Battle of PhilSea, take it to the bank.

If you haven't watched these already, they may pique your interest:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSHVfY2LVoE&list=PLvwPt9MhP59-EBg42Jl6TIv7iPAatK-1u&index=3&


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llvFHI3aKmI&list=PLvwPt9MhP59-EBg42Jl6TIv7iPAatK-1u&index=2

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

F4F-4/FM-1 Empty Weight 5,895 Pounds, 6 x 0.50 inch (F4F) / 4 x 0.50 inch (FM), 1,440 (F4F) / 1,720 (FM) rounds, note gross weights for F4F-4, FM-1 75 pounds heavier.
F6F-3 Empty Weight 9,207 pounds, 6 x 0.50 inch, 2,400 rounds
F6F-5 Empty Weight 9,238 pounds, 2 x 20mm, 4 x 0.50 inch, 450 x 20mm, 1,600 x 0.5 inch rounds
TBF-1C and TBM-1C Empty Weight 10,555 pounds, 1x0.50, 1x0.30 inch, 400/0.50, 500/0.30 rounds (200x0.50 for 16,142 pounds loaded)
TTBM-3 Empty Weight 10,960 pounds, 1x0.50, 1x0.30 inch, 400/0.50, 500/0.30 rounds
SB2C-1 / SBF-1 / SBW-1 Empty Weight 10,114 pounds, 2x20mm 400 rounds, 2x0.30 2,000 rounds
SB2C-1A Empty Weight 10,363 pounds, 4x0.50 1,600 rounds, 1x0.50 500 rounds. Radius is Marine Corps, only 20 minutes allowance for landing and reserve.
SB2C-3 Empty Weight 10,400 pounds, 2x20mm 400 rounds, 2x0.30 2,000 rounds
SB2C-4 Empty Weight 10,547 pounds, 2x20mm 400 rounds, 2x0.30 2,000 rounds
SB2C-5 Empty Weight 10,580 pounds, 2x20mm 400 rounds, 2x0.30 2,000 rounds
SBD-6 Empty Weight 6,554 pounds, 2x0.50 360 rounds, 2x0.30 2,000 rounds
SBD-5 Empty Weight 6,533 pounds, 2x0.50 360 rounds, 2x0.30 2,000 rounds

Model	Gross Weight	Fuel	Oil	Load	Bomb Bay	Drop Tanks	Max Range	Max Range	Max Range	Combat Radius	Scout Radius
Model	Pounds	Gallons	Gallons	Load	Tanks Droppable	No. x Gallons	Statute Miles	Speed MPH	Altitude Feet	Nautical Miles	Nautical Miles
F4F-4 / FM-1	7,975	144	11	Nil	Nil	Nil	830​	161​	5,000​	105​
F4F-4 / FM-1	8,369​	202​	11​	Nil	Nil	1 x 58	1,050​	157​	5,000​	245​
F4F-4 / FM-1	8,762​	260​	11​	Nil	Nil	2 x 58	1,275​	153​	5,000​	325​
F6F-3	12,575	250	16	Nil	Nil	Nil	955​	160​	1,500​	120​
F6F-3	13,632​	400​	19​	Nil	Nil	1 x 150	1,340​	161​	1,500​	335​
F6F-5	12,740	250	16	Nil	Nil	Nil	945​	159​	1,500​	120​
F6F-5	13,797​	400	19	Nil	Nil	1 x 150	2,010​	160​	1,500​	340​
TBF/M-1C	16,142	335	19	1xMk13-2	Nil	Nil	1,105​	153​	5,000​	225​
TBF/M-1C	17,364​	421​	25​	1xMk13-2	Nil	2x58	1,390​	152​	5,000​	340​
TBF/M-1C	16,425​	335	19	4x500lb	Nil	Nil	1,105​	153​	5,000​	225​
TBF/M-1C	15,422​	335	19	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,180​	148​	5,000​	235​
TBF/M-1C	14,358​	335	19	Nil	Nil	Nil	1,300​	142​	5,000​	n/a	340​
TBF/M-1C	16,334​	610​	32​	Nil	1x275	Nil	2,135​	149​	5,000​	n/a	580​
TBM-3	16,940	335	19	1xMk13-2	Nil	Nil	1,065​	163​	1,500​	240​
TBM-3	18,440​	535​	29​	1xMk13-2	Nil	2x100	1,510​	148​	1,500​	425​
TBM-3	15,900​	335​	19​	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,905​	166​	1,500​	245​
TBM-3	17,390​	535​	29​	4x500lb	Nil	2x100	1,570​	156​	1,500​	435​
TBM-3	14,780​	335​	19​	Nil	Nil	Nil	1,165​	143​	1,500​	n/a	290​
TBM-3	16,760​	610​	32​	Nil	1x275	Nil	2,000​	166​	1,500​	n/a	530​
SB2C/F/W-1	13,504​	210​	12​	1x500lb	Nil	Nil	750​	155​	1,500​	100​
SB2C/F/W-1	14,720​	320​	18​	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,110​	158​	1,500​	240​
SB2C/F/W-1	15,583​	436​	25​	1x1,000lb	Nil	2x58	1,430​	153​	1,500​	375​
SB2C/F/W-1	15,744​	320​	18​	2x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,075​	162​	1,500​	235​
SB2C/F/W-1	16,607​	436​	25​	2x1,000lb	Nil	2x58	1,375​	157​	1,500​	365​
SB2C/F/W-1	13,674​	320​	18​	Nil	Nil	Nil	1,150​	154​	1,500​	n/a	280​
SB2C/F/W-1	14,609​	450​	25​	Nil	1x130	Nil	1,590​	156​	1,500​	n/a	405​
SB2C/F/W-1	15,294​	450​	25​	Nil	1x130	Nil	1,470​	149​	1,500​	n/a	370​
SB2C/F/W-1	15,419​	566​	25​	Nil	1x130	2x58	1,895​	151​	1,500​	n/a	495​
SB2C-1A	15,076​	320​	18​	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,130​	155​	1,500​	275​
SB2C-1A	15,939​	436​	25​	1x1,000lb	Nil	2x58	1,455​	153​	1,500​	410​
SB2C-1A	16,112​	320​	18​	2x1,000lb AP	Nil	Nil	1,090​	163​	1,500​	270​
SB2C-1A	16,975​	436​	25​	2x1,000lb AP	Nil	2x58	1,400​	151​	1,500​	400​
SB2C-1A	17,162​	320​	18​	2x1,000lb AP,2x500lb	Nil	Nil	1,000​	149​	1,500​	250​
SB2C-3	15,042​	320​	18​	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,165​	149​	1,500​	265​
SB2C-3	15,871​	436​	25​	1x1,000lb	Nil	2x58	1,420​	153​	1,500​	375​
SB2C-3	16,471​	436​	25​	1x1,600lb	Nil	2x58	1,380​	156​	1,500​	360​
SB2C-3	15,684​	566​	25​	Nil	1x130	2x58	1,925​	153​	1,500​	n/a	500​
SB2C-4	15,189​	320	18	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,165​	149​	1,500​	265​
SB2C-4	16,018​	436​	25​	1x1,000lb	Nil	2x58	1,420​	153​	1,500​	375​
SB2C-4	16,618​	436​	25​	1x1,600lb	Nil	2x58	1,380​	156​	1,500​	360​
SB2C-4	15,831​	566​	25​	Nil	1x130	2x58	1,920​	153​	1,500​	n/a	500​
SB2C-5	15,566​	353	20	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,245​	148​	1,500​	300​
SB2C-5	16,287​	453​	25​	1x1,000lb	Nil	1x100	1,490​	153​	1,500​	335​
SB2C-5	16,566​	353​	20​	1x2,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,120​	158​	1,500​	245​
SB2C-5	15,918​	553​	32​	Nil	1x100	1x100	1,805​	150​	1,500​	n/a	465​
SBD-6	9,608	284	16	Nil	Nil	Nil	1,380​	144​	1,500​	285​
SBD-6	10,608​	284​	16​	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,230​	143​	1,500​	255​
SBD-6	10,882​	400​	16​	1x500lb	Nil	2x58	1,600​	133​	1,500​	395​
SBD-6	10,382​	400​	16​	Nil	Nil	2x58	1,700​	133​	1,500​	n/a	445​
SBD-5	10,403	254	16	1x1,000lb	Nil	Nil	1,115​	139​	1,500​	240​
SBD-5	9,903​	254​	16​	1x500lb	Nil	Nil	1,115​	138​	1,500​	260​
SBD-5	10,701​	370​	16​	1x500lb	Nil	2x58	1,345​	138​	1,500​	420​
SBD-5	10,439​	165​	12​	1x1,600lb	Nil	Nil	680​	145​	1,500​	95​
SBD-5	9,352​	254​	16​	Nil	Nil	Nil	1,225​	153​	1,500​	n/a	305​
SBD-5	10,148​	370​	16​	Nil	Nil	2x58	1,565​	140​	1,500​	n/a	400​

1. Radius is given in nautical miles
2. In calculating radius, engine requirement fuel consumption data are increased 15% and flight test fuel consumption data are increased 5% at all power conditions of conventional engines For J.P. engines, use one half of the above percentage increases.
3. Warm-up:
a) Conventional Engines: 20 min, warm-up at 1/2 rated RPM on propeller load curve. Fuel consumed in pounds in 10 min. warm-up (including 15% increase) may be taken as 0.03 times sea level normal rated BHP of engines.
b) J.P. Engines: Equivalent to 30 sec. warm-up at maximum static thrust. Fuel consumed in pounds (including 7.5% increase) in warm-up and accelerating to maximum static thrust may be taken as 1.2% of the maximum static thrust rating of the J.P. engines at sea level.
c) Combination of Conventional and J.P Engines: Fuel consumed in warm up of all engines in accordance with (a) and (b) above, is considered in calculating radius unless it is specified that J.P. engines shall not be used for take-off in which case conventional engines only are warmed up.
4. Take off:
a) Conventional Engines: 1 min. take-off at rated take-off power.
b) J.P. Engines: 1 min. take-off at rated take-off thrust.
c) Combination of Conventional and J.P Engines: Conventional engines used at rated take-off power for 1 min. and J.P engines used at rated take-off thrust for 30 sec. All engines used for take-off unless it is specified that J.P. engines shall not be used.

5. Warm-up and take-off on internal protected fuel. Protected tanks may be refilled with fuel from unprotected tanks if fuel pump for this purpose is incorporated in the design. This will be noted on the sheet.

6. Rendezvous, climb and cruise out is on unprotected fuel if available.
7. For airplanes with combination of conventional and J.P. engines, the J.P. engines are not used in rendezvous, climb and cruise-out cruise-back and landing.
8. For airplanes with J.P engines only (no conventional engines)
a) 10 min. rendezvous at 60% normal rated thrust at sea level.
b) Climb to 15,000 feet is at maximum military rated thrust.

9. Auto. rich is used for climb unless flight test data are available indicating satisfactory engine cooling characteristics in climb with auto. lean.
10. If average rate of climb in climbing to 15,000 feet at 60% N.S.P. is less that 400 ft./min., climb is given at full normal rated power and auto rich.
11. Cruise-out or cruise-back speeds less than V for maximum range or greater than V at 60% N.S.P. are not used in calculating radius. Only a few of the older airplanes or new airplanes of special design are affected by this note.

12. For airplanes with J.P. engines only (no conventional engines), cruise-out and cruise-back at speed for maximum range.
13. If it is necessary to drop fuel before entering combat, the following note will be added. "Combat radius limited by amount of protected fuel for use in combat and return. XXX gal. fuel remain in unprotected tanks when entering combat and muse be dropped, used for approximately YYY hrs. search, or used to increase speed in cruising-out to approximately ZZZ knots."

14. Radar if specified for the airplane is carried the full distance out and back in all radius problems.

15. Combat at 15,000 feet - Class VF Airplanes
a) Conventional engines: Combat 20 min. of which 10 min. is at war emergency rated power and 10 min. is at military rated power. If war emergency rating is not available, combat 20 min. at military rated power.
b) J.P. Engines: Combat at 15 min. at military thrust rating at 15,000 feet and maximum airplane speed.
c) Combination of Conventional and J.P Engines: Combat 20 min. of which 10 min. is at war emergency rated power for conventional engines plus military rated thrust of J.P. and 10 min. is at military rated power of conventional engines plus idling J.P. engines. If war emergency rating is not available, use military rated power.

16. Combat at 1,500 feet - Class VB, VBT, VSB and VTB Airplanes
a) Conventional engines: Combat 15 min. of which 5 min. is at war emergency rated power and 10 min. is at normal rated power. If war emergency rating is not available, combat 5 min. at military rated power and 10 min. at normal rated power.
b) J.P. Engines: Combat at 10 min. at military rated thrust at 1,500 feet and maximum airplane speed.
c) Combination of Conventional and J.P Engines: Combat 15 min. of which 5 min. is at war emergency rated power of conventional engines plus military rated thrust of J.P. engines and 10 min. is at normal rated power of conventional engines plus idling J.P. engines. If war emergency rating is not available, use military rated power.

17. Radius includes distance covered in climb, but not descent or dive.

18. In listing the scouting radius and the search radius, the following note will be added. " Practical XXX radius is reduced YYY nautical miles for each minute of combat at 1,500 feet at war emergency rated power of conventional engines plus military rated thrust of J.P. engines." In the note, military rated power is used if war emergency power rating is not available and reference to J.P engines is deleted if they are not incorporated in the airplane.

 

[drgondog]

You should also post the ranges for the American contemporaries of the earlier Japanese craft. If you do that, I think you'll see that in the earlier part of the war the Japanese still outranged the Americans. Comparing Vals and Kates to Avengers and Helldivers is to my mind inapt on the technical level.

Totally agree. F4F and SBD and the Vibrator are the correct counterparts in 1942 and most of 1943.

 

[Frog]

Totally agree. F4F and SBD and the Vibrator are the correct counterparts in 1942 and most of 1943.

You must mean the Devastator, the Vindicator was only used by the Marines in action.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You must mean the Devastator, the Vindicator was only used by the Marines in action.

Neither Devastator nor Vindicator were used by American fliers in the Pacific after Midway, whether Navy or Marine.

 

[Alan Stevens]

Neither Devastator nor Vindicator were used by American fliers in the Pacific after Midway, whether Navy or Marine.

A Vindicator bombed Moscow in 1964.