davebender
1st Lieutenant
Jet wash alone might do the trick. If the Fokker closes to typical WWI era gunnery range the pilot might get his face burned.
Ace pilot with inferior aircraft vs not-so-ace pilot with superior aircraft?
- Thread starter Friendly Fire
- Start date
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Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
jet wake vs jet wash. Thanks Dave, you proved my point! 
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Manfred von Richthofen would have enough sense to avoid this fight if it's possible to do so.
Has anybody ever tried to remove their jacket when behind the wheel of a car ? It ain't easy. I can't imagine trying to do it in the cockpit of any single place aircraft.
I also can't imagine very easy access to the ammo in the ammo can from the pilots seat either.
Aviation enthusiast can be real bitchy about details.
I also can't imagine very easy access to the ammo in the ammo can from the pilots seat either.
Aviation enthusiast can be real bitchy about details.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
1. Get aircraft trimed flying level
2. Unbuckle harnesses and chute
3. Reach over your sholders and pull the jacket over your head as if you were taking off a sweater.
4. Once in your lap, pull your arms out of the sleeves
5. Discard jacket and re-buckle
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Jeez I changed completely while driving it was a little embarrassing when the road construction came up and the flag man was a little taken aback
Actually the jacket full of ammo going thru the engine would probably cause a immediate engine explosion, not just kill the engine, but cause it to shed it's compessor turbine blades. That would be like a bunch of bullets going out from the engine. Think of a lot of little propellar blades flying off x 100s.
AFAIK the D VII didn't have elevator trim (not many WW1 aircraft did seem to). The cockpit of those aircraft is small, not enough room to remove a jacket.I doubt you'd even be able to do it in a later aircraft, like the Tiger Moth.
The other thing that doesn't quite sit right is the fact that the ME262 pilot doesn't realise his tail has been shot to pieces until he has no elevator. Even with significant damage, there would be a major pitch-down.
Great premise for a bit of fiction, and you can always claim 'artistic licence' to shut up any of us pedantic buggers!
- Thread starter
- #29
Friendly Fire
Airman
- 14
- Apr 15, 2012
Well, could the Fokker pilot throw a scarf and a metal box of medical supplies that he happened to carry with him?
davebender
1st Lieutenant
How about urine after the Fokker pilot pees his pants?
- Thread starter
- #31
Friendly Fire
Airman
- 14
- Apr 15, 2012
Two questions, would the ME 262 barrel roll or spin in a corkscrew if it lost its tail fin? How would an aircraft respond if it lost half of its right wing?
Also, here's a rewrite of the climax:
-----------------------------------
He banked hard to the left, then barrel-rolled in an upward arc to the right, mentally counting how many seconds did the stream of shells last. The ME 262 attempted to also bank left and then to the right, but overshot and screamed past him, gently rocking the old Fokker. The fighter jet then pulled up and banked right again to meet the Fokker, and Daniel continued to bank in the same direction.
It did not take long for both of them to fly in a circle. There was no way the ME 262 could line up its cannons for a kill, especially at over 400 mph, but its cannon occasionally fired short bursts. However, Daniel knew the Fokker would stall before the ME 262 would, and a stalled aircraft was a dead aircraft.
As a risky gamble, he stopped banking to the right and flew in a straight line. If his timing was right, he could pump its right engine full of bullets. If the timing was off, he could either end up directly in the ME 262's cross-hair or get burned by its exhaust.
As he flew closer, he noticed Paul had taken the bait and was not going to stop flying in a circle, but his aircraft was flying too fast for him to nail the ME 262's right engine. He dived gently while taking a small metal box of medical supplies out of his pocket. Paul also dived as the Fokker neared, but he overcompensated and quickly found himself flying below the Fokker.
Daniel threw the box at the rapidly approaching ME 262 and watched it get inhaled by the left engine. As the Fokker spiraled out of control from being destabilized by the ME 262's wake, he grinned as the ME 262's left engine vomited a shot of flames and a thick plume of black smoke. He eventually regained control and flew towards a field of rocky pillars next to an island; another few feet of diving and he would've crashed into the water.
Another long hail of shells alerted Daniel of the ME 262 diving towards him as he entered the field. He decelerated close to the Fokker's stall speed and narrowly dodged pillars after pillars, with shells ricocheting around him, while counting how many seconds of fire was wasted. The ME 262 pulled up hard to avoid crashing into the pillars.
After exiting the field, he turned around hard to meet Paul head on. It would be the only time he would ever pull such risky maneuver, only because he knew his opponent had expended all of his ammunition. The ME 262 did not change its course; it was going to ram the Fokker out of the sky.
Suddenly, its intact right engine coughed a plume of smoke and died. Paul had been too aggressive with the acceleration and starved the engine of air with an over-dosage of fuel.
As the ME 262 closed the distance gap while Paul was attempting to restart the engine, Daniel pulled up hard and then pushed back down, lining up his machine guns onto the slightly diving ME 262's upper side. He open fired as the jet plane glided past him. The ME 262's wake forced the Fokker to crash into the water at nearly 80 mph, instantly killing Daniel.
"Hah! He missed!" Paul victoriously shouted as the right engine roared back to life. He then pulled on the stick to flip the aircraft upside down to do a 180 degree turn back to the base.
There was a loud snap, and a piece of metal flew off as the aircraft begin to pitch downward in a spiral.
Cursing, he looked behind him.
The tail fin was missing.
Also, here's a rewrite of the climax:
-----------------------------------
He banked hard to the left, then barrel-rolled in an upward arc to the right, mentally counting how many seconds did the stream of shells last. The ME 262 attempted to also bank left and then to the right, but overshot and screamed past him, gently rocking the old Fokker. The fighter jet then pulled up and banked right again to meet the Fokker, and Daniel continued to bank in the same direction.
It did not take long for both of them to fly in a circle. There was no way the ME 262 could line up its cannons for a kill, especially at over 400 mph, but its cannon occasionally fired short bursts. However, Daniel knew the Fokker would stall before the ME 262 would, and a stalled aircraft was a dead aircraft.
As a risky gamble, he stopped banking to the right and flew in a straight line. If his timing was right, he could pump its right engine full of bullets. If the timing was off, he could either end up directly in the ME 262's cross-hair or get burned by its exhaust.
As he flew closer, he noticed Paul had taken the bait and was not going to stop flying in a circle, but his aircraft was flying too fast for him to nail the ME 262's right engine. He dived gently while taking a small metal box of medical supplies out of his pocket. Paul also dived as the Fokker neared, but he overcompensated and quickly found himself flying below the Fokker.
Daniel threw the box at the rapidly approaching ME 262 and watched it get inhaled by the left engine. As the Fokker spiraled out of control from being destabilized by the ME 262's wake, he grinned as the ME 262's left engine vomited a shot of flames and a thick plume of black smoke. He eventually regained control and flew towards a field of rocky pillars next to an island; another few feet of diving and he would've crashed into the water.
Another long hail of shells alerted Daniel of the ME 262 diving towards him as he entered the field. He decelerated close to the Fokker's stall speed and narrowly dodged pillars after pillars, with shells ricocheting around him, while counting how many seconds of fire was wasted. The ME 262 pulled up hard to avoid crashing into the pillars.
After exiting the field, he turned around hard to meet Paul head on. It would be the only time he would ever pull such risky maneuver, only because he knew his opponent had expended all of his ammunition. The ME 262 did not change its course; it was going to ram the Fokker out of the sky.
Suddenly, its intact right engine coughed a plume of smoke and died. Paul had been too aggressive with the acceleration and starved the engine of air with an over-dosage of fuel.
As the ME 262 closed the distance gap while Paul was attempting to restart the engine, Daniel pulled up hard and then pushed back down, lining up his machine guns onto the slightly diving ME 262's upper side. He open fired as the jet plane glided past him. The ME 262's wake forced the Fokker to crash into the water at nearly 80 mph, instantly killing Daniel.
"Hah! He missed!" Paul victoriously shouted as the right engine roared back to life. He then pulled on the stick to flip the aircraft upside down to do a 180 degree turn back to the base.
There was a loud snap, and a piece of metal flew off as the aircraft begin to pitch downward in a spiral.
Cursing, he looked behind him.
The tail fin was missing.
It seems important for your story to kill both pilots, but I don't see the Me262 surviving the FOD damage done to the engine.
Lots of modern aircraft have been brought down by birds going thru the engine. Any metal object of any size is going to cause massive instant engine destruction. I'm talking about blow the wing off destruction possibly, in just a few seconds.
I also don't see the possibility of 2 .30 caliber machine guns shooting the tail off a Me.262. That would take a LOT of hits. But it'd only take a few hits in the right place to cut a control cable or rod.
But if a aircraft were to lose it's entire tail assembly, it'd go down, because it'd be nose heavy.
Plus wake turbulance come from the aircraft wing and tail surfaces passage thru the air, and also from the propeller or jet engine. There would be less wash or wake turbulence, with one or both engines not running. Maybe a lot less. I'm not sure how much each contributes % to the overall turbulence.
Lots of modern aircraft have been brought down by birds going thru the engine. Any metal object of any size is going to cause massive instant engine destruction. I'm talking about blow the wing off destruction possibly, in just a few seconds.
I also don't see the possibility of 2 .30 caliber machine guns shooting the tail off a Me.262. That would take a LOT of hits. But it'd only take a few hits in the right place to cut a control cable or rod.
But if a aircraft were to lose it's entire tail assembly, it'd go down, because it'd be nose heavy.
Plus wake turbulance come from the aircraft wing and tail surfaces passage thru the air, and also from the propeller or jet engine. There would be less wash or wake turbulence, with one or both engines not running. Maybe a lot less. I'm not sure how much each contributes % to the overall turbulence.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #34
Friendly Fire
Airman
- 14
- Apr 15, 2012
The extra velocity from the Fokker and the ME 262 (it was flying into the bullets at around 400 mph) does do extra damage. I was thinking it was possible that the bullets didn't do enough damage for the tail fin to snap off when the jet plane was gliding in a straight line at low 400 mph, but the damage was enough for the tail fin to snap off at higher speed during a turn.
The bullets are already traveling about 1800mph at 2600-2900 fps, another 400 mph isn't going to increase their damage that much.
You're trying to alter facts so your story will come out the way you want. Instead let likely outcomes of actions dictate the story.
It's very unlikely he could toss something from one aircraft and have it swallowed by the engine, but in the unlikely event that it did happen, that itself would likely turn the Me262 into a fireball, if it didn't it would be a very touchy, unmanuverable aircraft. He would be doing no high speed turns, or turning it upside down. When you lose one engine of a 2 engine aircraft, you lose not just half the power, but a great deal of control ability because your using up a lot of the aircraft's control authority to compensate for the off center power you have left.
You're trying to alter facts so your story will come out the way you want. Instead let likely outcomes of actions dictate the story.
It's very unlikely he could toss something from one aircraft and have it swallowed by the engine, but in the unlikely event that it did happen, that itself would likely turn the Me262 into a fireball, if it didn't it would be a very touchy, unmanuverable aircraft. He would be doing no high speed turns, or turning it upside down. When you lose one engine of a 2 engine aircraft, you lose not just half the power, but a great deal of control ability because your using up a lot of the aircraft's control authority to compensate for the off center power you have left.
- Thread starter
- #36
Friendly Fire
Airman
- 14
- Apr 15, 2012
So what would kill an engine without causing it to take out the wing? The only situation I can think of is that the engine randomly dies, which did happen quite frequently in RL, including shortly after take off with brand new engines.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Like Tom said, quick or hard throttling would cause great problems with the 262.
Also remember this: Jet engines were a new, magical innovation and most people really didn't know how they worked. So a common knowledge that throwing something into the engine would cause problems may have not been known then. Kinda like asking someone about WTF LOL BRB in 1969.
Also remember this: Jet engines were a new, magical innovation and most people really didn't know how they worked. So a common knowledge that throwing something into the engine would cause problems may have not been known then. Kinda like asking someone about WTF LOL BRB in 1969.
Yeah, we didn't use those particular abreveations in 1969. Though we had FIGMO, SNAFU, SOS, BUFF, B1rd, and on and on.
Ingesting a rag (such as the scarf you mentioned earlier) could cause flame-out without being catastrophic.
Saw it happen once in an A37 - no damage to the engine once the rag was removed.
