ace to ace confrontations

[bobbysocks]

a question was asked on another forum that got me to thinking. how many german aces faced allied aces in aerial combat that is able to be confirmed by records. i know Gunther Rall supposedly faced Hub Zemke....and there is a debate as to whether either was in the actual area but Rall and Rankin believed it so... And i know Haydon was there when Nowotny crashed but didnt fire a shot. with the wealth of german aces i figured those head to head battles were extremely possible. so if so, who were they?

 

[fubar57]

I don't know if this fits your question...Lydia Litvyak shot down her last aircraft the day she died, Aug 01/43. Bf.109G-6 W.Nr.20423 "white 3" piloted by Fw. Hans-Jörg Merkle - KIA (30-kill ace) 1./JG 52.




Geo

 

[dedalos]

give the definition of ace.If you mean a 5 kill german pilot to a 5 kill alleid pilot then there are hundreds, propaply thousands cases
If you mean famous aces, still there are dozens oc cases. Maresille alone shot down several desert air force aces. In the defence of the reich several german aces were lost to future american aces ( of course that fighting was not on equal terms)
Your question is far too general

 

[GrauGeist]

give the definition of ace.If you mean a 5 kill german pilot to a 5 kill alleid pilot then there are hundreds, propaply thousands cases
If you mean famous aces, still there are dozens oc cases. Maresille alone shot down several desert air force aces. In the defence of the reich several german aces were lost to future american aces ( of course that fighting was not on equal terms)
Your question is far too general

How is it "far to general"?
he asked:

...how many german aces faced allied aces in aerial combat that is able to be confirmed by records...

Which looks like a pretty straight forward question.

 

[GregP]

I have and am continuing to work on a list of Wrold aerial victories. But nowhere I have ever seen can identify the identity of the opponent unless the opponent was shot down and capotured or crashed and not burned or otherwise rendered impossible to identify.

I've read about Erich Hartmann being shot down, but never the victor's name. The only great ace I can think of that was supposedly identified as being shot down by an identified person is Von Richtoffen of WWI, and that is supposedly in some dispute. Historical research suggests Brown didn't shoot him down, but rather an AA gunner.

The question is intriguing. But I'm not sure the data exist in reliable form to answer it. I'm also not sure the data don't exist in reliable form.

I AM sure I've never run across it or heard of it existing for WWII combats. I have seen victories ... just not the names of the victims reliably tied to the name of the victor ... but would be quite interested to see it, should it somehow surface at this late date.

 

[dedalos]

How is it "far to general"?
he asked:

Which looks like a pretty straight forward question.

No it is not.If he does not make more specific the term 'Aces". If he means 5+ kills for each side ,then there are hundreds of cases.
Just in the book, "the war diary of jg26" there are many such cases.
Of coure , in the lw 5 kills , did not make you an experte

 

[mhuxt]

There were a number at night - Bob Braham springs to mind as having accounted for a couple of notable NJ aces, and in a Beaufighter at that.

 

[GrauGeist]

No it is not.If he does not make more specific the term 'Aces". If he means 5+ kills for each side ,then there are hundreds of cases.
Just in the book, "the war diary of jg26" there are many such cases.
Of coure , in the lw 5 kills , did not make you an experte

Well let me go back and read his original question...

Ok, this statement right here:

how many german aces faced allied aces in aerial combat

doesn't specify "how many aces with 100 kills versus aces with 27 kills" or "how many aces in green aircraft versus aces in brown aircraft"...it asks HOW MANY ACES...an ace being credited with 5+ victories.

With thousands of pilots in thousands of aircraft across the front, it was inevitable that an ace (5+ victories) would eventually come across another ace (5+ victories)

"Experten" were the top aces of the Luftwaffe. If you look through the long list of Luftwaffe aces, you'll see it starts at 5 confirmed victories and then increases until you reach the upper echelon, where the "Experten" were.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No it is not.If he does not make more specific the term 'Aces". If he means 5+ kills for each side ,then there are hundreds of cases.
Just in the book, "the war diary of jg26" there are many such cases.
Of coure , in the lw 5 kills , did not make you an experte

Why are you making things difficult?

An ace has 5 or more kills. Period.

His question was ace vs. ace. Nothing more, nothing less. Simple question that does not need to be needlessly dissected.

 

[Juha]

Many times the so called ace vs ace combats are products of an over eager researcher but here is a real ace slayer Aces of the Luftwaffe - Otto Schulz.
Otto Schulz seems to have shot down some 7 aces or future aces.
Other rather sure case is when Helmut Lipfert (LW 203 kill ace) shot down Traian Darjan (Rumanian 12 kill ace), both were flying a Bf 109G when the combat happened. That happened on 25 Feb 45, so not a blue on blue case.

Juha

 

[fastmongrel]

There must have come a time near the end when the LW consisted of veterans with kills under there belts and wet behind the ears newbies who could just about fly straight and level. The RAF and USAF had a lot of guys who were well trained enough to survive in combat but didnt necessarily have that extra 1% to become an ace. In the LW sheer attrition, number of sorties and a target rich environment meant that a survivor would become an Ace almost by default.

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,
Werner Molders shot down by René Pomier Layrargues (1V + 5 shared v.) on 5 June 1940 and himself shot down and killed during this combat mission.

 

[Glider]

The best example I can give is a WW1 combat between Lanoe Hawker VC in a DH2 and Manfred Von Richthofen in an Albatros DII.

The combat was basically between the two of them and despite the Albatros have significant performance advantage, Hawker almost got away with it.

 

[Mike Williams]

Hello,
Werner Molders shot down by René Pomier Layrargues (1V + 5 shared v.) on 5 June 1940 and himself shot down and killed during this combat mission.

That reminds me of F/LT. John Webster's shooting down and wounding of Major Werner Mölders on 28 July 1940. While Malon has at times been credited with the victory, Webster's combat is seen as a better fit. Here's the combat report.

 

[tyrodtom]

I notice he claims the second combat was with A He 113.

 

[GrauGeist]

I notice he claims the second combat was with A He 113.

Yeah, now I'm not sure how the Bf109 or Fw190 could be mistaken for the He113 (He100). It's size and shape set it apart from the Bf109 and of course, the Fw190 was distinctive by several features including a radial engine.

I could understand the mistake by a spotter or parhaps a crew member aboard a bomber, but this encounter (and several other dogfights where an He113 were identified) was a close range.

 

[Greyman]

Yeah, now I'm not sure how the Bf109 or Fw190 could be mistaken for the He113 (He100). It's size and shape set it apart from the Bf109 and of course, the Fw190 was distinctive by several features including a radial engine.

I could understand the mistake by a spotter or parhaps a crew member aboard a bomber, but this encounter (and several other dogfights where an He113 were identified) was a close range.

I'd like to point out the circumstances surrounding your routine identification of different aircraft vary somewhat with those of a 19-year old fighting for his life in 1940.

 

[GrauGeist]

I'd like to point out the circumstances surrounding your routine identification of different aircraft vary somewhat with those of a 19-year old fighting for his life in 1940.

I'd like to point out that that same 19 year old fighting for his life could be shooting at Spitfires as easily as Bf109s if his eyesight is that bad...

 

[tyrodtom]

We view aircraft in 3 views and see all kind of distinctive features but someone maybe pulling G's, graying out, maybe the light isn't so good, or clouds, or sun in your eyes, or so busy trying to save his ass he just didn't think to look close.
I think all those factors and more might have more influence than excellent eyesight.

 

[fubar57]

The He113 was still in the minds of the RAF, British intelligence featured the aircraft in AIR 40/237, a report on the Luftwaffe that was completed in 1940. Given the similarities at a quick glance in combat, recognition could be forgiven.

A is the 113, B is the 109



Geo