Aces and claims...

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by MadMax, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. MadMax

    MadMax New Member

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    I found some disputes about Erich Hartmann's victory claims and the article in french magazine "Le fana de l'aviation" #423 (by Dimitri Khazanov) in old thread called "The Best Bf109 variants". Khazanov suggests that the actual Hartmann's Abschussliste is only 70-80 victories, not 352. Of course, some people are not agree with him :).

    I don't think that my opinion is the Ultimate Truth. However, here is some interesting statistics.

    According to Toliver and Constable, Hartmann flew 1405 mission of which 825 resulted in aerial combat. OK, that's pretty cool. But... 13 December 1943 Hartmann recorded 150 victories on 391 sorties. The ratio is 2,6 sorties for 1 claim. This is a VERY high level of effectiviness in comparison with achievements of other aces, both German and Allied. So, it's clear that at the end of 1943 Erich Hartmann was already very skilful pilot and very tough opponent.

    However, the total of his sorties is 1405. Consequently, between 14 December 1943 and 8 May 1945 Hartmann flew 1014 combat missions. And he scored... OMG! Only 202 victories! So, the ratio is more than 5 sorties for 1 claim. Surprise!

    I don't want to speculate now about reason of this strange thing. I just want to demonstrate that THERE ARE some strange things in Hartmann's Abschussliste (and some other famous German aces too).

    -----------------------------------------

    By the way, I read some books of Dimitri Khazanov. Well, as a historian he's someone I'm calling a 'serious historian'. It means tons of documents, tons of citations and nothing of his own thoughts. But his article was heavily critisized and... I wanna say what I think.

    CharlesBronson:
    "Pokryshkin against 25 Me-109" - this is "a large amount of bullshit", I fully agree. But what about "the enormous lies" which are included in some GERMAN airwar narrations? :) Some examples, just for fun.

    4 July 1943 Theo Weissenberger and another five pilots of JG 5 were sent to secure Nazi's naval convoy. At some point they noticed a large formation of 25-30 Soviet bombers, including (according to fighter reports) Hampdens, Il-2s, Pe-2s, and Bostons. In aerial combat six pilots of JG 5 shot down 16 Soviet aircrafts. Weissenberger himself claimed 6 victories.

    This is what some people (including historian W. Girbig) believe is true. But is this ACTUALLY the truth? No. Instead of "25-30 russian bombers" there were only SEVEN bombers - 3 DB-3s, 2 Hampdens and 2 Il-2s of 6 MTAD VVS SF. 5 bombers were shot down by fighters and 2 DB-3s were heavily damaged but returned at base safely. As you can see, 5 russian aircrafts were scored to Weissenberger and others as 16 "confirmed kills". And where are these "confirmed" Pe-2s and Bostons? :)

    Was Weissenberger a "liar" or someone else? Well, I don't know. But, in fact, there is a massive overclaiming.

    Another example. 13 April 1943. According to Girbig (see "Jagdgeschwader 5 'Eismeer'"), on this day Heinrich Ehrler, Weissenberger, Brunner, Mors an Faldick were involved in combat with some 20+ russian fighters and shot down 18 (!) of them. Ehrler and Weissenberger both claimed 6 victories, Brunner claimed 4 victories.

    But how many russian fighters actually were sent on sortie 13 April 1943? The answer is some kind of a shock. Only FOUR fighters fought with Experten. That were 4 Hurricanes of 78 IAP VVS SF. Two Hurricanes (serzhant Besput'ko and starshiy serzhant Strelnikov) were shot down by Messerschmitts and two other Hurricanes (starshiy leitenant Veryovkin and serzhant Kostenok) were badly damaged but returned safely. So, 2 russian aircrafts became 18 "confirmed victories" in Experten's reports.

    As we can see, not only Soviet propaganda worked very well but Nazi's one too.

    But hey, from WHICH side we can wait the clear judgement? :) Russians? Germans? Americans? Or someone else?
    OK, some russians historians lies. However, some german historians lies too. So, who is better?

    Wrong. 93,4% of Hartmann's Abschussliste are various fighters, 2,9% are Il-2 Stormoviks, 3,4% are bombers and 0,3% others. See Toliver/Constable and Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page.


    Udet:
    Did really exist one? :) I suggests that Dr. Gebbels was not a Russian.
    And some people in the world think that the UK/USA won the war all by itself. Anyway, what point of view is correct? Or they are both incorrect?

    Well, these are the american and european historians who are considering Lend-Lease was a "crap". Or you think that P-40 and Hurricane were very cool fighters, even better than P-51, P-47 and Yak-9, La-5? P-39 was rejected by both USAAF and RAF. But Aleksander Pokryshkin (46 personal and 6 shared victories) scored some 40 of his victories while flying "Aircobra".
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    d.k.'s work is pure baloney and has been covered at length right after it was published on both the lemb ans 12'oclock high web=sites...........

    i feel you are trying to stir up problems here so please do not..........
     
  3. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Hartmans kills will allways be disputed because we will never get to see the logbooks because they are forever lost in Russia. Some peasent probably burned them to start a fire in a harsh Russian winter.

    That is kills were as low as 70 to 90 is hogwash however for reasons that Erich has stated. Hartmann did not have the best kill ratio of all German pilots by no means but his kills were still easily 290 to 350.
     
  4. mad_max

    mad_max Member

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    Dang I was wondering...hmm I don't remember posting this. LOL then I notice it's not me. :lol:

    All I can say is the numbers match pretty darn good between what the German's
    say they downed to what I've seen as the Russian's lost. Who got the kills is the question
    and I'm quite sure Hartmann got his share.

    Until Dec. 1943 Russia didn't have the best front line fighters. They did with what
    they had. It'd be like Spit IX's against 109E-3's. Not hard to imagine the outcome.

    After Dec. 1943 Russia made great strides in aircraft performance and in the Spring
    had enough numbers of them with more skilled pilots; meanwhile the Western Front caused
    bleeding of airframes for the Defense of the Reich.

    Really doesn't matter; Hartmann was an extra ordinary pilot and foe.
     
  5. Ghostdancer

    Ghostdancer Member

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    The claims by the top German aces do seem pretty incredible, but many aviation and war historians do accept these figures. Other top aces as well as Hartmann claim in the triple digits and I think most of this was on the eastern front. As large as the Russian air force may have been could they have had this many aircraft?

    Which brings me to Greg "Pappy" Boyington. His claim of shooting down 6 Japanese planes when he was a member of the Flying Tigers is disputed and believed to only be I think 2 or 3.
     
  6. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    There were many aces on the western front as well who scored in the tripple digits as well.

    Check out this webpage:

    Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page
     
  7. Ghostdancer

    Ghostdancer Member

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    True, though not as high of figures as for the top aces on the eastern front.

    You mention lost log books. If I remember my info correctly, these log books are suppose to have been reviewed right after the war if indeed they had been lost later on and thus the figures were accepted. This is what I once read anyway and quite a long time ago.
     
  8. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I am not sure if they were reviewed or not after the war.
     
  9. Ghostdancer

    Ghostdancer Member

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    Don't recall where it was that I got that information, but would like to see it again if I can find it.
     
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