Achtung! Spitfire! (Mk.IX flavor)

[gingerbob]

Hi everybody,

A thought managed to appear in my mind this morning:

I know a lot about the RAF reaction to the Focke Wulf 190, but I don't recall seeing any contemporary Luftwaffe comments about a more fiery Spitfire when they started encountering the Mk.IX. A fairly common comment (in retrospect) about the introduction of the IX is that the German pilots had to treat all Spitfires as if they were IXs, since they were so hard to distinguish. But that may be one of those "Monday morning" suppositions.

Soooo. Does anyone have any sources concerning German rumors, intelligence, fears, etc regarding a higher performance Spit? I'm especially thinking of England/France 1942, but am open to other times and places.

Thanks,
bob

 

[pbehn]

The Mk IX wasnt the only new improved Spitfire at the time, the first single stage Griffon engined Spitfire Mk XII came in in Oct 1942. Wiki says this
However pilots found it difficult to exploit this advantage in combat as German pilots were reluctant to be drawn into dogfights with Spitfires of any type below 20,000 feet (6,100 m). When the Mk XII was able to engage in combat it was a formidable fighter and several Fw 190s and Bf 109-Gs fell victim to it.[19]​ The Mk XII's speed advantage at lower altitudes again became useful near the end of its front line service in Summer 1944, in which it shot down a respectable number of V-1 Flying Bombs, 82.5[20]​ The Mk XII variant was retired in September 1944.

 

[EwenS]

The Mk IX wasnt the only new improved Spitfire at the time, the first single stage Griffon engined Spitfire Mk XII came in in Oct 1942. Wiki says this
However pilots found it difficult to exploit this advantage in combat as German pilots were reluctant to be drawn into dogfights with Spitfires of any type below 20,000 feet (6,100 m). When the Mk XII was able to engage in combat it was a formidable fighter and several Fw 190s and Bf 109-Gs fell victim to it.[19]​ The Mk XII's speed advantage at lower altitudes again became useful near the end of its front line service in Summer 1944, in which it shot down a respectable number of V-1 Flying Bombs, 82.5[20]​ The Mk XII variant was retired in September 1944.

Only 100 Mk.XII were built between Oct 1942, as noted, and Sept 1943. It only ever equipped two front line squadrons:-

41 - Feb 1943 - Sept 1944 when they were replaced by the Mk.XIV
91 - April 1943 - March 1944 when they were again replaced by Mk.XIV

The engine was a two speed single stage supercharged Griffon.

The Mk.IX had entered squadron service in June / July 1942 with a number of squadrons. So valuable were the Mk.IX in the 1942 - early 1944 period that when Mk.IX equipped squadrons rotated out of southern English bases to quieter areas for a rest, they usually left their Mk.IX behind for the squadrons being rotated in.

 

[gingerbob]

Well, OK, I guess I can allow expanding the question to include the XII, out of historical interest, but Ewen has very nicely addressed the point. The XII was very much (well, somewhat!) a special niche version, quite different situation from the IX- and later to be introduced in ops.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that only 10 Squadrons (at a time) had the IX by Oct 1942, before the supply was stopped in favor of getting some to the Med. The strength did not then increase until August '43. (Edit: after a while I remembered the LF.IX, but as it turns out the first few squadrons to get the new variant (first was 611 Sqn in Mar '43) were existing F.IX squadrons, so my statement is still correct that the strength of IX squadrons did not increase in the UK until August.)

 

[fubar57]

Went through my "captured" books and this is all I could find on the Mk.IX in the book "Kg. 200 The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit"

​

I was hoping the book, "Luftwaffe Test Pilot" by Hans-Werner Lerche might have the answer but the latest type he flew was the Mk.V

 

[pbehn]

Well, OK, I guess I can allow expanding the question to include the XII, out of historical interest, but Ewen has very nicely addressed the point. The XII was very much (well, somewhat!) a special niche version, quite different situation from the IX- and later to be introduced in ops.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that only 10 Squadrons (at a time) had the IX by Oct 1942, before the supply was stopped in favor of getting some to the Med. The strength did not then increase until August '43.

Only 100 Mk.XII were built between Oct 1942, as noted, and Sept 1943. It only ever equipped two front line squadrons:-

41 - Feb 1943 - Sept 1944 when they were replaced by the Mk.XIV
91 - April 1943 - March 1944 when they were again replaced by Mk.XIV

The engine was a two speed single stage supercharged Griffon.

The Mk.IX had entered squadron service in June / July 1942 with a number of squadrons. So valuable were the Mk.IX in the 1942 - early 1944 period that when Mk.IX equipped squadrons rotated out of southern English bases to quieter areas for a rest, they usually left their Mk.IX behind for the squadrons being rotated in.

I only mentioned the XII because it had a reference to how LW pilots reacted to Spitfires, since they couldnt tell the difference between types.

 

[Snautzer01]

Most crashed planes were looked upon. Just like the allies did. Any upgrades would have been noticed. All the hardware engines radios radar..etc every upgrades would go down the line.

 

[gingerbob]

I was thinking along the lines of the "discussion" that began to take place from late '41 when the Fw was being encountered. Surely some German pilots received a rude surprise when the Spitfires they ran into behaved quite differently from what they were used to.

 

[drgondog]

I was thinking along the lines of the "discussion" that began to take place from late '41 when the Fw was being encountered. Surely some German pilots received a rude surprise when the Spitfires they ran into behaved quite differently from what they were used to.

Hi Bob - In all the books I have read, I recall any direct references to the Spit IX from LW side save that they were considered 'equal to' Bf 109G-4 and Fw 190A-4. Mentions were made that the Spit IX had an advantage over the 190 at altitudes beginning in 20-22K altitudes.

 

[Mike Williams]

Hi everybody,

A thought managed to appear in my mind this morning:

I know a lot about the RAF reaction to the Focke Wulf 190, but I don't recall seeing any contemporary Luftwaffe comments about a more fiery Spitfire when they started encountering the Mk.IX. A fairly common comment (in retrospect) about the introduction of the IX is that the German pilots had to treat all Spitfires as if they were IXs, since they were so hard to distinguish. But that may be one of those "Monday morning" suppositions.

Soooo. Does anyone have any sources concerning German rumors, intelligence, fears, etc regarding a higher performance Spit? I'm especially thinking of England/France 1942, but am open to other times and places.

Thanks,
bob

Maybe not exactly what you are looking for but this comes to mind:

Johannes Steinhoff, Sicily, Commander JG 77 (July 1943):

"The Malta Spitfires are back again... They're fitted with a high altitude supercharger and at anything over twenty-five thousand feet they just play cat and mouse with us.​

At 28,000 feet the Spitfire could turn in an astonishingly narrow radius. We on the other hand, in the thin air of those altitudes had to carry out every maneuver with caution and at full power so as not to lose control."​

Johannes Steinhoff, Messerschmitts Over Sicily, (Stackpole Books, 2004), pp. 97-98, 111.