Aircraft Carriers

[renrich]

If I remember right the Hornet had about an 800 foot flight deck. From seeing film of the take off I am guessing the first B25 had about 500 feet to work with. If you recall, one of the later takeoffs was done even though the pilot forgot to lower flaps. That was exciting. As far as Spits are concerned, I imagine a takeoff from land(depending on wind) could be managed in perhaps 900 ft if AC is lightly loaded. Off a carrier with WOD that would be much shorter. If I remember right the Malta Spits had to takeoff with exterior tanks because they were 450 miles out. Taking off from a jeep carrier in a P47 must have been problematical as the Jug was a notorious ground love lover. I was involved in building a limited service hotel that was 55 ft high, 200 ft long and 65 ft wide. I think that is the approximate size of the flight deck on CV1 the Langely. I used to stand on the roof and imagine landing an AC on that hotel roof. Whew!

 

[maxs75]

Freebird,
the P-47 take off was a catapult one. At that stage the fighters for Pacific theater had catapult gear.
The Malta relief was done without catapults. Carriers involved were Argus, Ark Royal, Furious and at least once Victorious (Hurricanes till 1941), and Eagle, Furious and Wasp in 1942 with Spitfires.
USS Wasp repeated the mission twice in 1942, delivering 46 Spit the first time and 47 the second (+ 17 from HMS Eagle) in april-may 1942.
Ranger was not used in the Mediterranean, but made some trips from US to Africa.


Max

 

[Freebird]

If I remember right the Hornet had about an 800 foot flight deck. From seeing film of the take off I am guessing the first B25 had about 500 feet to work with. If you recall, one of the later takeoffs was done even though the pilot forgot to lower flaps. That was exciting. As far as Spits are concerned, I imagine a takeoff from land(depending on wind) could be managed in perhaps 900 ft if AC is lightly loaded. Off a carrier with WOD that would be much shorter. If I remember right the Malta Spits had to takeoff with exterior tanks because they were 450 miles out. Taking off from a jeep carrier in a P47 must have been problematical as the Jug was a notorious ground love lover. I was involved in building a limited service hotel that was 55 ft high, 200 ft long and 65 ft wide. I think that is the approximate size of the flight deck on CV1 the Langely. I used to stand on the roof and imagine landing an AC on that hotel roof. Whew!

Did you mean 200 yards? The Langley was 542 feet long according to Haze Gray. I think the lead Spits P-40's must have had only about 250 - 300 feet or so, if the escort's deck is only 500 feet long. And also the Avenger/Bouge escorts could only do 16 - 18 knots so the WOD 15 mph less than Hornets. But I guess if a B-25 can take off without catapult in 500 feet then 300 feet take-off can't be that bad for a fighter!

 

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Don't lose sight of the significance of WOD, guys; its easy to underestimate. Even on an average day at sea wind 15-20 kts, ship 25-28 kts means that a Seafire would only have to achieve 45-37 kts to get airborne (assume stall speed of 85 kts).

The same goes for modern canopy open taxy speeds: Surface wind 20/25 kts, aircraft taxying into it at 30 kts means that the canopy and its actuating mechanism has to withstand a minimum 55 kts and 60-70 kts can easily be achieved. Given the size of a Tornado or F-15E canopy, you can see that there is a deal of 'windage' to be taken into consideration in the design.

 

[renrich]

Shows how bad my memory is. No wonder the 200 ft looked short. I did get the beam somewhat close as her beam was 69 and a fraction ft. In 1937 she was converted to a seaplane tender and she lost almost half of her flight deck. That load of p40s she was carrying was probably going to off loaded with a crane.

 

[Freebird]

The ferrying of assembled single engine fighters was best done with aircraft carriers. No need of unload facilities and aircrafts ready very soon after ground landing. It was one of the duty of CVEs as soon as they became available.
During the invasion of Marianas, two CVEs (loaded with 37 P-47D each) launched the Army fighters for their own defence, and they later landed on their intended destination (Saipan).

Freebird,
the P-47 take off was a catapult one. At that stage the fighters for Pacific theater had catapult gear.
The Malta relief was done without catapults. Carriers involved were Argus, Ark Royal, Furious and at least once Victorious (Hurricanes till 1941), and Eagle, Furious and Wasp in 1942 with Spitfires.
USS Wasp repeated the mission twice in 1942, delivering 46 Spit the first time and 47 the second (+ 17 from HMS Eagle) in april-may 1942.
Ranger was not used in the Mediterranean, but made some trips from US to Africa.
Max

Thats smart thinking, considering that the P-47 wasn't even a Navy fighter. But I guess it was such a robust plane that it could take catapult gear. But the Spit launchings would be almost as tough, the Argus was 560 ft. 20 knots, not much bigger or faster than a Bouge. So the WOD would have been enough to launch. How difficult was it to modify Hurricane or Spit wings to fold?

 

[JoeB]

Did you mean 200 yards? The Langley was 542 feet long according to Haze Gray. I think the lead Spits P-40's must have had only about 250 - 300 feet or so, if the escort's deck is only 500 feet long.

Langley was converted to a seaplane tender in 1937 with the fwd ~40% of the flight deck removed. The 32 P-40's she was carrying when sunk were parked there and on the old hangar deck, to be offloaded by crane had she reached Java.

USS Ranger ferried USAAF P-40's in the Atlantic on 4 occasions, twice to Ghana (then 'Gold Coast') in 1942 for further flight across Africa to India for the first batch in April, then to join the Desert AF in case of the 57th FG in July. Then she ferried P-40's to Morrocco twice in early 1943 to build up the 12th AF. When she carried 325th FG in January 1943, those planes flew off. A photo in "Ranger" by Cressman clearly shows a fly off, and "Checkertail Clan" by McDowell and Hess says they lined up so as to give the first ones off 425', v 390' std minimum for the ship's own F4F's (the first B-25 on Hornet had 467').

USS Chenango (Sangamon class relatively large tanker based CVE) apparently catapulted her load of 33rd FG P-40F's in the Torch operation off Morocco, Nov 1942. As was mentioned 318th FG P-47D's were catapulted off USS Natoma Bay and Manila Bay (Kaiser type CVE's) to deploy to newly captured Marianas bases in June 1944; and USS Nassau and Breton (both Bogue class) catapulted 72nd FS P-39Q's to garrison Makin Island and 45th FS P-40K's to US held Canton Island in the Pacific in 1943 (I've seen latter referred to as a fly off but first account in Lambert "Pineapple Air Force" says catapult).

Whereas I think all the Malta fly off's were non catapult. Per "Aircraft to Malta" by Roger Nailer in "Warship 2000" there were 28 such carrier sorties including 2 by Wasp. They flew off a total of 353 Hurricanes and 384 Spitfires (among non-carrier planes, as well as 17 Albacores and 8 Swordfish to operate from Malta), of which 334, 367, 11 and 7 arrived safely. Ark Royal was sunk by U-81 while returning to Gibraltar after the 'Perpetual' fly off in Nov. 1941. So the Malta ferry/fly off ops were by far the biggest.

Joe

 

[Freebird]

Whereas I think all the Malta fly off's were non catapult. Per "Aircraft to Malta" by Roger Nailer in "Warship 2000" there were 28 such carrier sorties including 2 by Wasp. They flew off a total of 353 Hurricanes and 384 Spitfires (among non-carrier planes, as well as 17 Albacores and 8 Swordfish to operate from Malta), of which 334, 367, 11 and 7 arrived safely. Ark Royal was sunk by U-81 while returning to Gibraltar after the 'Perpetual' fly off in Nov. 1941. So the Malta ferry/fly off ops were by far the biggest.

Joe

Thats the way I understood it too. The Wasp was still a fairly long deck (740'), so it leaves some room. I think most of the Malta fly-offs were only about 30 - 40 aircraft. The hardest would have been the "Argus", as I said it was only 560'. Do you think they could have fit 15 - 20 Spits in the hanger and then another 10 - 15 on deck? That might still leave 350 - 400 deck for take off. Was the minimum take off for the Hurri or Spit less than the Wildcat (Martlet) because of the lower take off weight? (6,400lb Spit V - 8,100 lb Wildcat)

 

[JoeB]

The Wasp was still a fairly long deck (740'), so it leaves some room. I think most of the Malta fly-offs were only about 30 - 40 aircraft. ... Do you think they could have fit 15 - 20 Spits in the hanger and then another 10 - 15 on deck? ...That might still leave 350 - 400 deck for take off. Was the minimum take off for the Hurri or Spit less than the Wildcat (Martlet) because of the lower take off weight? (6,400lb Spit V - 8,100 lb Wildcat)

I don't know how much deck run was available on Wasp off Malta but with only ca. 47 Spitfires (all) on deck, v ca. 70 P-40's carried by Ranger (again all on deck) and Wasp the larger ship it was probably at least as much as the 425' quoted in 325th FG's case flying off Ranger. Photo's of Ranger carrying the 57th FG in July '42 shows a lane was kept clear on the stbd side of the flight deck, not all the P-40's scrunched up aft, while photo's of Spitfires taking off from Wasp show the width of the deck basically free; that's probably how more planes were fit on deck in the Ranger's case but I doubt the Spitfires were given much if at all less takeoff run.

The overriding reason the P-40's were given more room than the std F4F run on Ranger was simple: lack of experience of the Army pilots taking off from carriers. On the Ranger's first ferry mission to Africa it's mentioned that 3 of the 68 P-40 pilots had practiced taking off from a carrier before. And that would apply to the RAF pilots too. The wingloading of the F4F wasn't that much higher than Spitfire V and it was designed to be a carrier plane, and again flown by guys trained to take off from (and furthermore land back onboard ) carriers.

Joe

 

[R Leonard]

Note the F4F-4 parked forward of the island . . . tail stripes!

 

[renrich]

Great posts Joe B, relly enjoy them. Notice all the Bluejackets clustered at the base of the island to watch the takeoff? I had no idea that the number of fighters delivered to Malta was that great. Tells a little about the scale of the battle there. I would like to visit Malta sometime.

 

[renrich]

R Leonard, I notice in the picture of Wasp, it appears she still has the quad 1.1 inch hose guns mounted.

 

[Glider]

According to my records she still had them when she was sunk. The only changes to her original weapons were the removal of 15 x HMG and the addition of 30 x 20mm.

 

[renrich]

Glider, I don't think those guns were replaced by Bofors on other US carriers until well into late 42 as I believe underwater pictures of Yorktown show them still on her.

 

[Glider]

That fits. One of my books mentions that the Wasp may have had one quad added before she was lost, the first in the USN. However, as it was a maybe and only one of three I didn't mention it.

 

[Freebird]

Has anybody seen the book "Shattered sword" quoted by Syscom? It stated that the Japanese carrier capacity was much less than normally reported. is this the difference between hanger capacity "deck park"?

I haven't been able to find any other works that agree with "Shattered Sword" numbers

Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway

The capacity of Japanese carriers was slightly less but comparable to US capacity.

Yorktown class A/C capacity: 90
Lexington 90
Ranger 86
Wasp 84

Kaga/Akagi 90
Shokaku/Zuikaku 84
Soryu/Hiryu 72
Junyo 53
Ryujo 37
Zuiho 30
Taiyo 27
Hosho 21

Freebird, the aircraft capacity of the Japanese carriers you quoted, is of the design specs from the mid 1930's. The actual capacity of the carriers in 1942 (with larger sized aircraft as compared to the mid 30's) at Midway were:
Kaga: 72, Soryu: 57, Hiryu: 59, Akagi: 63. Light Carriers were : Zuiho: 18, Ryujo: 30, Junyo: 33.

Syscom where did you get your figures from?

I used HazeGray, almost all of the figures listed were from 1939-1940, not mid 30's.

World Aircraft Carriers List: Japanese Aircraft Carriers

Both of the Shokaku class are listed as 84 aircraft (max), both completed in 1941.

Both Kaga Akagi had an initial capacity of 60, with 90 or 91 aircraft max after reconstruction, Kaga's reconstruction completed in 1935, Akagi's in the Sept of '38.

Soryu Hiryu are listed as 71 73 aircraft max, with Soryu first in commision beginning 1938, Hiryu completed summer 1939.

Zuiho Shoho are listed as carrying 30 aircraft, with Zuiho in service Dec 1940, Shoho Jan '42.

So all of the stats are 1938 or later, except for the Kaga. The Nakajima "Kate" B5N1 was in service on Japanese carriers starting 1937-1938, while before the "Val" D3A (47' wingspan, 33.5' length) they used the B4Y1 (50' x 33') and the Aichi D1A (37' x 30.5') but the D1A was a biplane, I don't think it had folding wings.

 

[Soren]

The F4F had a lower wingloading than the Spitfire...

 

[renrich]

I believe any comparison of wing loading of Spitfire versus Wildcat would depend a great deal on which Wildcat and which Spitfire and how they were loaded. At any rate the two AC were pretty close to the same size. All US Navy fighters had a shorter take off distance than all AAF fighters, of necessity. For instance, all Navy fighters had a takeoff distance of less than 1000 feet. All AAF fighters had a takeoff distance of more than 1000 feet. The P47D-25 took the honors(?) for the longest takeoff run at 2540 feet. The F2A3 took the honors for shortest, 620 feet, although the F4U4 could get off in 630 feet. Interesting to compare F4U4 to P47D, both large and heavy and both with almost the same engine. The F4F4 could get off in 710 feet, the P40N in 1760 feet. I doubt a Spitfire could come close to the Wildcat in short takeoff distance.

 

[R Leonard]

I know of one F8F that got off in 150 feet and another that beat that with an115 foot take off run. Cleveland Air Races 22 November 1946.

Rich

 

[renrich]

I should have qualified my remarks with, this refers to WW2 fighters. Did they use 2x4s in front of the wheels to assist in that short takeoff run? The F8F was designed as an interceptor to operate off of jeep carriers and it could get off the deck and get to altitude plenty fast.