Alternate History 'Runners Up' Stable

[Greyman]

I was recently reading about the Arado Ar 80 and started wondering about a strange scenario.

I pictured a scene in which unlikely disasters caused the demise all of the fighters we know and love that became the mainstays for their nations. No Bf 109s, no Hurricanes, no D.XXIs, no M.S. 406s.

In their places - what 'runner up' aircraft would have been adopted? The only plane in this area I have much knowledge of is Gloster's entry to the F.5/34 specification.

 

[Capt. Vick]

Curtiss P-37?

 

[GrauGeist]

What are you using as a criteria for the alternate?

Prototype projects that dead-ended because of other types being accepted?

And Jim, the YP-37 was a P-36 with a turbocharged Allison V-1710...it's looks odd because they had to move the cockpit back to make room for the turbo and the radiators:

 

[Capt. Vick]

Hmmmm....maybe not that one, though the made 13 of them. There was another Curtiss product that was supposed to be good, but not good enough?

 

[Capt. Vick]

Ah! It was the XP-46 I was thinking of!

 

[Ascent]

I think the HE 100 would have to be considered for the Luftwaffe. What other fighters did they have in the pipeline around then?

Edit: Or possibly I'm thinking of the HE 112? That was the direct competitor to the 109 was't it?

And i guess the fans of the FW 187 would have got their wish. But in this alternative future would we be arguing that they should have gone for the Me 110 instead of the FW 187?

 

[Greyman]

I think the HE 100 would have to be considered for the Luftwaffe. What other fighters did they have in the pipeline around then?

Edit: Or possibly I'm thinking of the HE 112? That was the direct competitor to the 109 was't it?

It appears so. I think the He 100 is a touch too late to be a main Luftwaffe fighter for the start of the war. The He 112 looks like the 'runner up' after the Bf 109. Looking at wikipedia - the Ar 80 and Fw 159 don't appear to have been serious contenders.

 

[Greyman]

Bare-bones figures for the British aircraft. Tough to draw conclusions - though I'd think the Mercury types would have a bit more development potential.

 

[tomo pauk]

MB-2 with Merlin?
He 112 (small wing) with DB 601A.
Fw 190 with DB-601/605.
I-180, I-185.
P-43, but designed around V-1710.
Whirlwind, but designed around Merlins.
P-40H, yes - the one with turbo.

 

[GrauGeist]

If the He100 is "too late", then what's the cut-off date?

1938, 1939?

 

[GregP]

How about a P-40Q with a 2-stage Merlin? About late 1943?

 

[parsifal]

CAC possibilities
1938. Adopt the Twin Wasp in place of the promises for the Hercules.
1940 Instead of the fruitless negotiations to build the hurricane at Fishermens bend, initiate the development of the CA-12 from 1939 instead of 1942, albeit with MG armament
1939 Complete development work for CAC Beafort, start rolling them off the lines from mid to late 1940, instead of late 41
1940. instead of messing about with the Beafighter, go full tilt for the CAC-14, Enters production from early 1942.
1943. instead of messing about in drawn out negotiation about licence production of the P-51, go in boots and all for the production of the CA-15
1940-41, fit the twin wasp to the combat versions of the Wirraway, so that they could carry a useful war load. Scare the pants off the Japanese at Gona.

 

[Greyman]

If the He100 is "too late", then what's the cut-off date?

No hard date I suppose - but do you think the He 100, if adopted, could be produced in sufficient numbers to take the mantle of 'main German single-engine fighter' by September 1, 1939?

 

[wuzak]

Heinkel seemed to think so, but as SR6 has pointed out, they appear somewhat under-gunned, unless the moteur-cannon works.

What about the Hawker Tornado, if in some 'bizzaro-world' scenario ( where the rules of physics can be usefully bent)
& R-R can get their wonky 'monkey-motion' X-crank Vulture mill running to a proper TBO spec?

That beast, with R-R's top-drawer supercharging tech, was a 1940 era, 420+ mph at altitude, machine..

The Vulture seemed to work quite well in the Tornado. The Manchester was probably too much aeroplane for two of them (or two 1940 model Sabres for that matter).

I don't believe that the Vulture received an updated "Hooker" type supercharger.

The only issues for Rolls-Royce for solving the remaining problems was time and money. Both of which were in short supply since the outbreak of war.

Also, high altitude supercharging would have been a waste on the Tornado, due to the thick wing causing problems with compressibility at higher speeds and altitudes.

 

[wuzak]

No, the original first stage of the 61 series engines was 11.5" whereas the Vulture supercharger was a 12.0"

The Vulture Tornado was certainly not a "pet". It was the prototype of the Tornado/Typhoon series. It flew at least 6 months before the Typhoon (with its hand built prototype engine).

From the Tornado it was quickly learned that the original radiator position didn't work, so it was moved to the chin and remained so for the Typhoon.

I would like to know what "fundamental flaws" the X-type engines had. The main issue the Vulture had was its master rod design. This was something that could have been solved with time. There was even thought of reverting to pairs of fork and blade rods and having two banks offset from the other two.

But with the pressure for more and better performing Merlins, you know, because of that pesky war thing, and the fact that the Vulture was being used in two types, one of which was to get replaced by a 4 engine variant, meant that the Vulture had to be cut loose to free up resources.

Wasn't the Sabre IV fitted to the Tempest I?

 

[Capt. Vick]

What about the series of Curtiss P-60's? Some of them where where flying before the end of 1941. Throw money and man power at whatever technical issues they had and I'm sure something would have come from it. At least she could have held the line until the P-75 Eagle came online!

 

[Shortround6]

RR did use a Vulture supercharger impeller ( and perhaps other parts ?) in a test rig while developing the two stage supercharger as it was close to the airflow required and "handy". It gave them a good starting point.

 

[wuzak]

What about the series of Curtiss P-60's? Some of them where where flying before the end of 1941. Throw money and man power at whatever technical issues they had and I'm sure something would have come from it. At least she could have held the line until the P-75 Eagle came online!

They could have improved that quite a bit. It could have had some wing span cut down and lost one or two guns per wing.

Also would have helped if the Merlin used was giving full power.

The XP-60 apparently became the XP-60D with a two stage Merlin, but I haven't seen what performance that gave.

 

[wuzak]

Even R-R admitted this.

They did?

 

[cherry blossom]

It is quite possible to imagine that the French Air Force could have chosen the Nieuport 161. There is a blog Flashback on glorious planes: Nieuport 161: The favored contender (revised 10 / 19 / 2015) which argues that the Nieuport outperformed the MS 405 and MS 406. The author of the blog has also posted an article in French on the competition L'aviation selon Drix: Morane-Saulnier 406 / Nieuport 161 : Le match vu par la presse aéronautique de 1935 à 1938 (Explicité le 04 / 07 / 2016).