American nightfighters pre-Black Widow (1 Viewer)

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Ahh...gotcha, but the A-26 Invader would have made a good dedicated Night fighter had it made it into the war sooner.

It was used on night interdiction missions in Europe from late summer 1944 onwards, with the 9th AF.

It depends on what altitude you want to "play" at.
the engines in an A-26, while good for 2000hp at take off and and Military power at 1500ft were rated at 1600hp at 13,500ft military power.

The engines in the P-61A&B were rated for the same 2000hp at take off but their 2 stage inter-cooled engines allowed 1800hp at 15,500ft and 1650hp at 22,500ft. military power.

While you might have been able to stuff the bigger superchargers, intercoolers, scoops and ducting into the A-26 if the P-61 airframe had turned out to be a turkey there doesn't seem to be much point if the P-61 exists.
 
Northrop P-61 Black Widow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The P-61 didn't enter operational service until May 1944. When it did enter service max speed was 366mph @ 20,000 feet. That's about 20 mph slower then a Me-410 light bomber operating at 20,000 feet and the Me-410 entered service over a year earlier. The P-61 would also have a tough time catching late war versions of the Ju-88 and Ju-188.

Speed clearly was not a priority for the P-61 night fighter.
 
Northrop P-61 Black Widow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The P-61 didn't enter operational service until May 1944. When it did enter service max speed was 366mph @ 20,000 feet. That's about 20 mph slower then a Me-410 light bomber operating at 20,000 feet and the Me-410 entered service over a year earlier. The P-61 would also have a tough time catching late war versions of the Ju-88 and Ju-188.

Speed clearly was not a priority for the P-61 night fighter.

So German bombers flew 'all out' when fully loaded? Even German fighters could not do their max speed continually except for 10 minutes.
 
So German bombers flew 'all out' when fully loaded? Even German fighters could not do their max speed continually except for 10 minutes.

They did as far as they could during the mini blitz in early 1944 when London was the target. Bombers used to climb high over France and then go in a slight dive to the target and head for home. Note the term bombers is a little loose as they included Fw 190.
It made them very difficult to catch.
 
Also consider the loadout (max weight) specs for the B-26, A-20 and A-26 were factoring bombs...in a night interdiction role, the loadout would be fuel and ammunition and most likely omitting the bombadier, making the loaded weight much less.

Not sure if they used other gunners at thier daytime stations, either. I can see keeping the tail gunner, though.
 
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Personally I think these aircraft would have performed as well as the P-61 in the night fighter role if they had been given a bit of development money.

However there was an even better solution. The U.S. could simply have adopted the Mosquito. Historically the USA operated a few Mosquitos so it's not like we were unfamiliar with it's superior performance as a night fighter and recon aircraft. Mosquitos airframes were manufactured in Canada and engines were produced in Detroit so it's essentially an American made aircraft anyway.
 
A. One USAAF squadron, the 416th NFS, did fly night fighter Mosquitos, Mk XXX, I believe. From summer 1944 until just before VE Day when they got P-61s.

B. The Brits weren't all that excited about stretching their Mossie production to fill a US order since it would have slowed their filling their own orders.

C. The USAAF weren't exactly thrilled about the idea of using a non-US airplane (yes, I know there were exceptions, but in the main, a "US only" mentality existed).

brickhistory
author, Beaufighters in the Night, mentioned in the opening post. Glad it stirred some talk.
 
I remember reading a book about the Mossie and it went into some detail about the use of them by the USAAF. Apparently USAAF decided that the Bomber, Strike and Fighter versions were not suitable for combat in Europe and even the PR ones were mainly used for Weather recce, not traditional PR missions. This I should add was the decision of the High Command not the pilots who were crying out for something better than the Beaufighter as a Night Fighter.

If Correct it seems that the NIH (Not Invented Here) factor played a major part of the decision

If anyone has more details or just something that says that my memory is plain wrong I would appreciate it.
 
I believe NIH was a major factor in the mostly non-use of the Mossie by the USAAF.

I also believe that introducing a "foreign" type into the mass production supply chain would have been operationally and economically prohibitive. Why to to the trouble of bringing in a wooden airplane with different guns (.303 and 20mm ((not used extensively in ETO by the US) when you've got a gazillion standardized planes rolling off your own production lines if you don't need to? The experiences of the US Beaufighter squadrons was a case in point - they simply could not get parts via Uncle Sam and had to beg/borrow/steal from the Brits.

Not to mention that the development costs and national honor of fielding the P-61 were sunk costs that made bringing a US Mosquito into mass service problematic.

Also, the production lines for the Mosquite would have been hard pressed to supply large additional numbers to the US while simultaneously filling British and Commonwealth orders. Just not enough manufacturing to go around in that case. A prime reason why the UK adopted so many US types into her service. The US could crank so many more, along with spare parts, than could the UK and Commonwealth.

No insult intended in that last statement. Remarkable bit of production but just not enough to keep up as the war progressed and spread.

As for an "idiotic decision," I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.
 
Northrop P-61 Black Widow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The P-61 didn't enter operational service until May 1944. When it did enter service max speed was 366mph @ 20,000 feet. That's about 20 mph slower then a Me-410 light bomber operating at 20,000 feet and the Me-410 entered service over a year earlier. The P-61 would also have a tough time catching late war versions of the Ju-88 and Ju-188.

Speed clearly was not a priority for the P-61 night fighter.

First P-61s (not XP-61s or YP-61s) were delivered in Oct of 1943. Unlike the Germans in the later war years the Americans preferred to allow units to work up and train as a unit in new equipment in the US before deploying overseas. Getting the bugs out and making sure the design is working properly is a little more difficult when the front line is 3-5000 miles away from the factory. And as has been noted the Allies had both Beaufighters and Mosquitoes to tide them over.

P-61 contract was signed Jan 30th 1941. 10 months before Pearl Harbor or while the winter night blitz was going on. I doubt that the P-61 was really designed to counter high speed nuisance raiders like the Me 410 or Ju 188As. the Americans were probably basing the supposed threat off of larger, heavier, slower night bombers that could actually carry a worthwhile bomb load.
P-61 was carrying around 2500lbs of guns, ammo, mounts and sighting equipment but not including radar.
The Heavy .50 cal ammo load may have been a mistake but I am not sure how you can say speed was not a priority. The P-61C with the turbos was certainly faster but had a few problems of it's own.
 
production lines for the Mosquite would have been hard pressed to supply large additional numbers to the US
What do you mean by "large additional numbers"? Only 691 P-61s were produced during 1943 to 1945 and the aircraft didn't even reach deployed combat units until May 1944.

US Warplanes
1943. 200 x P-61A
1944. 450 x P-61B.
1945. 41 x P-61C.

By comparison 7,781 Mosquitos were built including 1,133 in Canada. Give the P-61 program money to De Havilland and I suspect they would deliver 700 Mosquitos to the U.S. long before Northrop could deliver 691 of the inferior P-61s.
 
I would dispute the "inferior" comparison of the P-61 vs. Mosquito. Different, perhaps, but not inferior.

Let us not forget the SCR-720/Mk VIII and Mk X AI radar carried by the P-61 and Mosquito. More and more standardization occuring even within the night fighters.

But, that digression aside, "only" 700+ to the US would have meant that those same 700 wouldn't get to British or Commonwealth units. There simply wasn't the existing capacity to build them. Adding that capacity still would have involved time and added complexity to the US supply and training systems. Why do it?

The Mosquito was/is a superb aircraft. A wonderful piece of aeronautical engineering taking advantage of the non-strategic resource of wood. And damn graceful and beautiful to boot.

The P-61 was a good aircraft in it's own right. Certainly not as graceful looking, but damned good at it's job.

And the wings didn't come unglued in the Pacific. That should count for something. 8)
 
By comparison 7,781 Mosquitos were built including 1,133 in Canada. Give the P-61 program money to De Havilland and I suspect they would deliver 700 Mosquitos to the U.S. long before Northrop could deliver 691 of the inferior P-61s.

As usual with your schemes the question is when do you give De Havilland the money and why?
The Very first Mosquito doesn't fly until just 2 months before the contract is signed for the prototype P-61 and the first Mosquito night fighter squadron with radar doesn't become operational until April of 1942.

Contract history of the P-61 at this point is the $1,347,000 fir the two prototypes in Jan 1941.
March of 1941 sees a 5.5 million contract for 13 YP-61s.
sept 1941 sees a contract for 150 p-61s placed.
End of Feb 1942 sees a total of 560 P-61s on order including 50 for Britain. The last contract is for 63 million dollars.
A radar equipped Mosquito has yet to shoot down an enemy aircraft. The currant production Mosquito is using a single stage 2 speed supercharged Merlin. No Mosquito with radar will be flown with a two stage engine until Dec of 1942.

Radar is changing almost by the month in 1940-41 (OK an exaggeration) but in 1941-42 nobody is sure what the service AI radar of late 1943-44 will look like, or weigh, or need for electric power.

Without hindsight and a time machine just when do you cancel the P-61 and switch to the Mosquito?

The Mosquito may have a been a better answer but how did they know ahead of time it would be better?
 
And the wings didn't come unglued in the Pacific. That should count for something. 8)

I have never understood why the Mosquito is always said to have come unglued in the tropics the RAF certainly didnt seem to mind using the Mossie and the Hornet in the tropics post war.

Of course an aircraft designed to fly in the bone dry hot wasteland that is the British Isles will fall apart in the damp.

That last bit is irony caused by looking out of my steamed up window at the puddle that is my back garden.:(
 
They did as far as they could during the mini blitz in early 1944 when London was the target. Bombers used to climb high over France and then go in a slight dive to the target and head for home. Note the term bombers is a little loose as they included Fw 190.
It made them very difficult to catch.

From take off to altitude they were very slow.
 
Why not?

Serious money was spent to design the P-61 and build the P-61 assembly line. Without the P-61 program that money goes to De Havilland to expand production. Northrop could possibly even get the airframe contract, building the Mosquito under license. Now you've got an American built airframe powered by American built engines. Just like the P-51 fighter which was also British designed. Weapons, avionics etc. could be American made. Just like the P-51.
 
Why not?

Serious money was spent to design the P-61 and build the P-61 assembly line. Without the P-61 program that money goes to De Havilland to expand production. Northrop could possibly even get the airframe contract, building the Mosquito under license. Now you've got an American built airframe powered by American built engines. Just like the P-51 fighter which was also British designed. Weapons, avionics etc. could be American made. Just like the P-51.


See post #34.

One account of the History of the P-61 has the British purchasing commission talking to Northrop in the summer of 1940. Northrop prepares preliminary designs but before the negotiations reached firm commitments the USAAC entered the picture with a requirement for a night fighter not much different than the British requirement. On Oct 20 1940 the USAAC practically orders Northrop to submit a design to the requirements. A preliminary proposal was submitted to the USAAC on Nov 5, 1940, twenty days before the first Mosquito flew.
The British requirement is blended with the USAAC requirement and talks continue through Nov and Dec and end with the placement of the contract for the prototypes and the end of Jan 1941. As production contracts are placed the British are given priority and the first 50 production P-61s are supposed to go to England with the USAAC taking a back seat for deliveries.
With the British involvement the turret is easier to understand :)

But it still leaves the question of when should they have stopped the P-61 program and switched to Mosquito's.
Packard only signs on to build Merlin's in Summer of 1940 and by a minor miracle manages to produce 45 engines in 1941. Things do get better quickly but again you need a crystal ball to see that the Merlin is going to produce 1600hp or more in 1943-44 compared to what it was producing in 1940-41. The Northrop program does slip somewhat due to the complexity of the aircraft and the Mosquito turns out to be even better than originally hoped for.
Depending on an aircraft to exceed it's manufactures estimates is rather poor planning however.
 
With the British involvement the turret is easier to understand :)

Funny how we always get the blame for all the damn silly ideas that the USA come up with.:twisted:

Only the USA could come up with a fighter that weighs more than the average medium bomber and wonder why they have to install the biggest engines in the free world to get it off the grouind. OK I exagerate a little but hell, why not.
 

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