American nightfighters pre-Black Widow

[Shortround6]

Funny how we always get the blame for all the damn silly ideas that the USA come up with.

Only the USA could come up with a fighter that weighs more than the average medium bomber and wonder why they have to install the biggest engines in the free world to get it off the grouind. OK I exagerate a little but hell, why not.

You don't wiggle out of it that easy.

See Beaufighter MK V.

How anybody could do that to a poor, innocent Beaufighter is beyond me.

Two Mosquito's were to be fitted with 4 gun turrets but fortunately only mock ups.

the Americans might have said "we'll see your four .303s and raise you four .50s" but I think the British may have to own up to their share of the blame.

 

[davebender]

Only the USA could come up with a fighter that weighs more than the average medium bomber

Look at the weight of P-47s, F6Fs and F4Us compared to contemporary single seat fighter aircraft. The P-61 was just following the American tradition of being very heavy. Apparently the U.S. Army Air Corps and USN decided that weight no longer mattered once they had the P&W R2800 engine.

 

[Glider]

You don't wiggle out of it that easy.

See Beaufighter MK V.

How anybody could do that to a poor, innocent Beaufighter is beyond me.

At least we didn't put it into production.

 

[Shortround6]

Look at the weight of P-47s, F6Fs and F4Us compared to contemporary single seat fighter aircraft. The P-61 was just following the American tradition of being very heavy. Apparently the U.S. Army Air Corps and USN decided that weight no longer mattered once they had the P&W R2800 engine.

The big American fighters also carried a heavier weight of guns and ammo and had longer ranges than "contemporary single seat fighter aircraft".

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

You want heavy armament and long range you need a big plane.

Once the US had the R-2800 they could have heavy armament, longer range on internal fuel and still have performance.

 

[tomo pauk]

It's interesting how the R-2800 pops up in our threads Great engine, indeed.

 

[Glider]

The big American fighters also carried a heavier weight of guns and ammo and had longer ranges than "contemporary single seat fighter aircraft".

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

You want heavy armament and long range you need a big plane.

Once the US had the R-2800 they could have heavy armament, longer range on internal fuel and still have performance.

I admit to not looking it up but am prepared to state that the Mossie matched the P61 whichever way you look at it.

 

[davebender]

There is little truth to that statement. Most British and German fighter aircraft were better armed then their U.S. counterparts.

 

[davebender]

I agree.

The F7F shows what happens when you install a great engine in a great airframe. The P-61 shows what happens when you install a great engine in a mediocre airframe.

 

[Shortround6]

I admit to not looking it up but am prepared to state that the Mossie matched the P61 whichever way you look at it.

I won't say it didn't but the question is if that could have been predicted in 1941-42 when both programs were starting out.
The Mossie actually performed better than predicted as opposed to many aircraft that didn't perform as well as predicted.
Mr. Bender would have had the allies bet everything on one airplane that hadn't been in combat in the form needed at the time the decision would have had to have been made.

 

[Shortround6]

There is little truth to that statement. Most British and German fighter aircraft were better armed then their U.S. counterparts.

Care to show me how that statement is false?

Read it again.

I said a greater weight of guns and ammo. I said nothing about effectiveness or which guns were better for their weight.
The American .50 cal , while it did have some good attributes, was a very heavy gun for it's power and it's ammo was also heavy. A P-47 was hauling 577lbs worth of guns if it had eight and that is without mounts and heaters. Ammo, depending on amount carried and who you believe could go from 480lbs to 1050lbs.

Care to point out the German single engine fighter produced in the thousands that was carrying 1500lbs of guns and ammo?

How about the British single engine fighters that were carrying that much weight in guns and ammo?

The two navy planes were carrying over 1/2 ton of guns and ammo.

 

[davebender]

Mr. Bender would have had the allies bet everything on one airplane

Which aircraft is that?

The A-20 was in mass production during 1940. The improved A-26 was in the development pipeline by 1942. In a pinch the P-38 also had possibilities as a night fighter. The contract for the superior XF7F was signed on 30 June 1941. That's 4 potential U.S. night fighter aircraft before we consider British programs like the Beaufighter and Mosquito.

 

[brickhistory]

And none of them were conceived as night fighters. The P-61 was a purpose-designed and built idea.

What is the deal with trying to prove who's is bigger?

It would have taken longer and been more expensive to change from the P-61 to Mosquito production in any US factory. You don't just change metal guys into woodworkers overnight. There wasn't readily available expansion in British and Commonwealth factories to provide 700+ US Mosquitos and meet already existing British orders.

The decision to do so would have had to have been made in 1940 or early 1941 at the latest in order to have something out the door by 1943. As happened with the P-61.

Both were good airplanes. The Mosquito performed amazingly well in a wide variety of roles. It's also a beautiful, graceful airplane.

The P-61 did pretty well in it's one role of night fighting/night interdiction.

The heart of each, however, was the SCR-720/Mk VIII or Mk X AI. A Westinghouse design adopted from the British, mass produced by the Americans, and good on both for getting the job done.

 

[davebender]

"bigger" has nothing to do with it. This is about making smart decisions as to which aircraft programs get funded and which get the axe.

 

[Night Fighter Nut]

forgive me but my understanding of funding for the various planes has to do with the military taking a decent design and butchering it into something they think might work instead of letting the designers build what they believe is the best. There is also the problem of available products for use and having to change the design because parts or componants were not available. The P-61 in this case was originally designed with super chargers for extra horse power and the ability for greater altitudes. The military nixed this and decided to go with the less powerful engines. It wasn't until the P-61C that the super chargers were added. The P-61 was a very good aircraft. Not the best but good. In a one on one contest it out flew a P-47.