Are you for, or against, modifying warbirds as air racers?

[chris mcmillin]

Put simply, it's none of my business; if someone has the money, it's not for me to tell him how to spend it.
I notice that nobody says a word, when someone gets the data plate, from a Spitfire firewall, surrounds it with completely fresh-built parts, and calls it an original Spitfire Mark ..whatever.

Exactly. The days are over where the original metal is of usable nature if the airplane wasn't flyable already. it's going to be new-build for the structure whether a racer or a warbird.
Stiletto was a new build airplane (you know, the Color Tile one), Dago Red was a wreck as was Strega. Rare Bear, too. All of them could be warbirds in two years and a million dollars.
It's not an issue.
Chris...

 

[wmaxt]

Stock Allisons actually had a better reliability record according to the USAAF historical record of WWII continental US use. Allison's needed overhaul at around 420hrs while Merlins needed overhauled at around 330hrs moreover Allisons required about 2/3rds the time required to do an overhaul.

I don't know what the availability of Allison's is at this time, only 70,033 were made. The 111/113 series was the first Allison engines with 7 main bearings critical for making big HP. I do know that hydro racers stopped using them because they were having trouble locating both engines and parts for them.

 

[Shortround6]

Allisons all had 7 main bearings. The later models did use a different crankshaft with bigger counter weights that allowed for lower bearing loads despite a higher rpm. (3200 vs 3000). The newer crank was supposed to fit into older blocks.

 

[GregP]

Our shop has over 100 Allisons available for oeverhaul. We can build the E, F, and G models, but don't have any very early "long nose" reduction gearcases.

We can build about 16 or so G-series Allisons and a LOT more E and F engines. We have two V-3420's availble, and we have a LOT of parts.

But we are almost down to the point where we won't sell a single rod ... if you want rods, you will have to buy a set of rods because all our current inventory is matched. That is , the rod sets are matched by weight at this tiome, and therre is no reaosn to break up a set of 12 matched rods or matched pistons.

We can build and support probably 150 Allisons in total at this time, and can achieve whatever horsepower the buyer wants, depending on dash number, including the G-6 and G-10 dahs numbers. Weh have on hand two auxlilliary superchargers and could field a 3,000 HP Allison if someone wanted to fly one. Most will be in the 1,600 HP range and warbirds today don't ever fly at 35,000 feet.

So, the Allison is quite well supported at this time by Joe Yancey, Rialto, CA. And you CAN get some suport from other guys, too. They don't have our parts or tools, but can help the Allison owner if he or she wants to take a chance on them. If you don;t really need parts, it's OK to get help wherever you can.

Bill Mojay will give very good suport, as good as anyone. He KNOWS Allisons. Anybody else other than Jow Yancey does not have a reputation for following the Allison book to the letter. I'd use Joe Yancey or Bill Mojay if I wanted to fly an Allison. Naturally, I'd use Joe becuase he is a friend, but Bill is very good, too.

 

[Matt308]

I am against it.
These warbirds are too rare and and precious to be used in racing.
The idea of making a custom built aircraft for racing (such as Pond and Tsunami racers) was born because too many valuable and historic aircraft were being crashed and destroyed, not to mention many engines being damaged or wrecked beyond repair. I would rather see them in airshows only , using their original painting and markings.

Enough said. I have said this before and recognize that this is an emotional issue. But if you fly them, they will eventually crash. And they are PRICELESS! Yet I recognize that I am not in the majority.

 

[wmaxt]

Shortround, Your right, I checked V for Victory real quick and it indicates that the 12 counterweight crank was introduced as a retrofit on the F29 series engines and incorporated into all subsequent engines starting with the F30-111/113 engines for a rating of 1725hp at 3200RPM.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Again folks - most of the warbirds racing at Reno (and I'm talking about the Gold Division) were not original to begin with and were built up modified to begin with and probably have only a fraction of original parts in them. Those modified were done years ago and it's probably not worth it technically or financially to return them into an original state. NO ONE AND I REPEAT NO ONE AFAIK is taking a multi-million dollar stock warbird and modifying it to race at a venue that is not bringing a return on the loss of the value for that aircraft. There is a "classic" race were stock warbirds race, and it seems this is more for fun than anything else.

 

[Njaco]

Again folks - most of the warbirds racing at Reno (and I'm talking about the Gold Division) were not original to begin with and were built up modified to begin with and probably have only a fraction of original parts in them. Those modified were done years ago and it's probably not worth it technically or financially to return them into an original state. NO ONE AND I REPEAT NO ONE AFAIK is taking a multi-million dollar stock warbird and modifying it to race at a venue that is not bringing a return on the loss of the value for that aircraft. There is a "classic" race were stock warbirds race, and it seems this is more for fun than anything else.

And this is where some confusion may be. Like Joe said, racing warbirds are very different than the ones that fly at airshow displays (unless its advertised as a racer). Joe and others are more knowledgable than me, but my understanding is that almost all these airframes are totally new/modified and don't really contain any precious true warbird metal. Most I've seen in books/mags/shows have been flying for decades.

 

[pbfoot]

The not useing warbirds for racing kinda sucks ...have an unmodified category and everyones questions as to which warbird was faster or climbed better would answered no more debates on 109vs Spit vs P51 vs Zero and all other permutations. You'd get the definitive answer

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The not useing warbirds for racing kinda sucks ...have an unmodified category and everyones questions as to which warbird was faster or climbed better would answered no more debates on 109vs Spit vs P51 vs Zero and all other permutations. You'd get the definitive answer

Only if they were allowed to go outside the course! But then again it comes down to pilot skill!

 

[Matt308]

Good post FLYBOYJ, perhaps I missed the context of the discussion. I mainly am very saddened by the crashes of these wonderful pieces of history, but was not making my comment in the context of the modified Reno races only (Remember the B-17 thread where the pilot was standing on the main gear brakes to keep the fuselage horizontal and then easing the tail down at the very end as in utter showmanship fashion? - pissed me off six ways from Sunday). I was a witness to a gear collapse of a P-51D at the Seattle Boeing Field airshow in the early 1990's. Ever since then I have been most severely jaded. Some of the Paul Allen Everett, Washington museum displays are utterly priceless in my opinion (Fw-190-D10, Me-163 Comet, etc). While the Comet might not be in flown, most of his collection is. I personally would rather see an engine run-up and taxi. Flight is the penultimate experience, but the risk vs historical consequence of a crash just numbs my heart.

 

[MikeGazdik]

Speaking of the "Classic" classes for the Reno warbirds, that would be great! I have seen some on Youtube that looks to be those classes. One video has a Mustang, a few P-40's, a Yak, and bringing up the rear lap after lap is an F4f. That Grumman sounds wonderful as it lumbers by all alone. That is THE class!!!

 

[Shortround6]

Good post FLYBOYJ, perhaps I missed the context of the discussion. I mainly am very saddened by the crashes of these wonderful pieces of history, but was not making my comment in the context of the modified Reno races only (Remember the B-17 thread where the pilot was standing on the main gear brakes to keep the fuselage horizontal and then easing the tail down at the very end as in utter showmanship fashion? - pissed me off six ways from Sunday). I was a witness to a gear collapse of a P-51D at the Seattle Boeing Field airshow in the early 1990's. Ever since then I have been most severely jaded. Some of the Paul Allen Everett, Washington museum displays are utterly priceless in my opinion (Fw-190-D10, Me-163 Comet, etc). While the Comet might not be in flown, most of his collection is. I personally would rather see an engine run-up and taxi. Flight is the penultimate experience, but the risk vs historical consequence of a crash just numbs my heart.

In order not to crash them they can't fly, at all. It is not just racing, they have crashed or suffered mishaps on the way to or from airshows. If limited to just engine run ups and taxiing then the remaining warbirds would be limited to fixed sites. They may last longer but a lot fewer people will see them in a given year.

 

[Matt308]

In order not to crash them they can't fly, at all.

That's my point.

 

[GregP]

Let's just say that I will work to keep 'em flying forever and let it go at that. I respect other opinions, but I want to see the birds in the air and, as long as I can, I'll go see 'em. Atfer that, I won't much care about them anymore. It's not everyone's opinion, but I'm glad the owners I know are flyers and not just collectors.

You can always tell a flyer from a display piece becasue it has oil on it and gets used. I only know ONE owner who keeps his piston warbird spotless, and it's the prettiest Mustang around. That would be Ken Wagoner with a P-51D that is spotless and has no chips in the paint. It gets flown every weekend and CLEANED every weekend. Fortumately I got a 2-hour ride in one day while Ken was practicing for his biennial flight review ... slow flight, stall, accelerated stall, etc. We even did a couple fo rolls and a loop on the way back from practice. I even got to unstrap, lean forward and try the sick for a few minutes. Flew about as I expected. Small back pressure gets you 2500+ feet per minute climb. Small forward pressure gets you into a quick dive. and reasonable side presure will get from 45° to 45° in about 1.5 - 2 seconds ... without going to the stops. A very nivce-flying airplane and I hope it flies for a lot longer.

 

[Njaco]

Contrary to my better judgement, it is an airplane and its supposed to be in the air.

 

[model299]

^ What Njaco said. There will come a time I suppose when the insurance companies will simply refuse to cover them unless they're grounded, but until then, they belong in the air. It's like a neighbor who has a classic car he NEVER drives. Ever. He's terrified something will happen to it. It might as well be an engineless peice of metal sculpture sitting in his garage.

 

[MikeGazdik]

I do understand the ideal of keeping them safe. It's somewhat similar to what I think Lee Lauderback of Crazy Horse refers to as "Keeper of the Keys". These things must be preserved and passed onto the future generations to appreciate and understand.

I just don't think we are there...yet. If there is only a few of a said aircraft, then I would prefer to have them sitting in a building for all to see. I know there is a P-61 being restored somewhere to flight status. While I love the fact that it will someday fly, that plane needs to be treated special because it is the ONLY one flying. But there are some in museums so I think they should fly her.

Personally, the wonderful warbirds that stick out in my memory, are the ones I actually have seen and heard fly. The static displays are nice to see, but its like seeing someone else's deer or animal they hunted as a mount. I would have much perfered to see it in action!!! (or shoot it myself)

Also to contradict myself, I do somewhat cringe at the fact that the P-38 "Glacier Girl" is flown as much as she seems to be flown. That plane is certainly special, and would hate to see her destroyed.

 

[Njaco]

The P-61 is just around the corner from me....

MAAM's Mid-Atlantic Air Museum's P-61 'Black Widow' Recovery and Restoration Project - The Widow's Web

 

[GregP]

Glacier Gril is flown on Jow Yancey engines, about as relaible as you can get. She flies a lot, and Rod Lweis (the owner) uses her as he wants. The maintenance is impeccable, and the mechanical condition is excellent. There is nor eason to fear for her since the liklihood of two eninge failures is pretty slim. Rod is an excellent pilot and showers her with care and attention.

Rest easy. Really.

As an aside, he is restoring a Douglas A-20 and will fly that one, too, as often as he likes to. Since it is somehwat of a "fighter," I think it will be flown often. Rest easy, it will fly just fine with good maintenence and TLC.