AVG Colors Question

[MIflyer]

Can someone tell me if the brown in this photo is too light?

I understand that there were actually two colors of "brown" used by Curtiss on the Hawk 81A's, a lighter and a darker one, but all the Kittyhawk colors I have seen appear to have a darker brown than this color, as do the Hawker Hurricane photos I have seen.

 

[fubar57]

Antrvm Ratvs - Curtiss camouflage on A.V.G. Tomahawks

 

[Wurger]

All depends on which of the DuPont colour was used...

 

[buffnut453]

It also depends on how much fading occurred in Burma/China before any colour photos were taken of the airframes. Bottom line is that the AVG P-40s were paid for directly by the British Government and hence were built to British specifications. Thus the camouflage colours should be pretty close to the Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Earth, Dark Green and Sky) which was mandated at the time the order was placed.

 

[MIflyer]

Well, I have this book:

While is fine publication but relating the colors presented to actually painting the model is nonetheless still challenging.

Also, look at this rather tragic picture :

I'm sure the Kalamzoo Air Museum was trying for the markings of a P-400 at Guadalcanal but I think they took the "sand and Spinach" description too,literally and got what should be the "Dark Earth" color much too light.

 

[Wurger]

The main problem with the kind of pic is that these could have been taken with filters. Also the printing in books is also a trouble because the tone of a colour is made by mixing the basic colours and often, is not accurate.

 

[MIflyer]

The red filters so commonly used with B&W film in the 40's certainly had an effect. For example they made clouds look much more dramatic but also washed out the red centers in the early insignia.

But it is hard to see how a filter on a color shot would make the "Earth" look like "Sand."

In any case I guess a noticeable difference between RAF colors painted in England and those meeting those same specs in the USA is not unusual.

 

[Wurger]

Yes. That's true. But most inaccuracies happen when a pic is printed. Also the sunlight may affect the final effect. Here two images of my 1/72 scale Spitfire taken with a digital camera. One shot taken in the full sunlight while the second one with the standard light. The same background.

As the difference between RAF colors painted in England and those used in the USA is concerned .. I believe the US colours were more smooth/pastel and slightly lighter than the British paints.

 

[fubar57]

Man, I miss Polly S paint

 

[Wurger]

And here two additional shots. It was enough to change slightly the balance of RGB colours and .... and you may get the sandy tone of the Dark Earth paint instead. Please note that Dark Green wasn't changed so much. IMHO the same happened to the pic with the P-39. Have you seen the yellowish concrete? Also the same with the first image in the post #1.

 

[MIflyer]

Yes, I noticed the concrete but the picture on the book cover does not look like that; it's more like real concrete. The yellowish "pattern" seems to be an artifact of my scanner.

 

[Wurger]

I see.

Isn't the pic of the P-39s a post-war shot of restored planes? It it is, I would say it is very likely these colours used for repainting weren't too accurate.

However I'm not sure but I might have seen a such set of colours on US planes. But the Dark Earth was replaced with the OD ( Dark Green ) coat while the rest of plane was of the Sand colour. IMHO that's the case. The yellowish colour is nothing more but the Sand equivalent and doesn't have anything in common with the Dark Earth dope. Instead of the brown paint the Green one was used.

Edit... I found it.. the P-39Q N40A was of the Confederate Air Force kite flown in late 70' and wore the early style camo and markings for P-400. Here are the shots of her found at Top Flite P-39 Gold Edition Build - Page 5 - RC Groups

Then she was sold to the Kalamazoo Aviation History Museum in 1981 and initially retained the camo.

But then she was damaged, repaired and repainted with the camo scheme for the 67th FS

 

[Wurger]

the pic source: AirHistory.net - Harlingen - Valley International (KHRL / HRL) aircraft photos

Also from the mentioned in the previous post , site...

" Originally Posted by dweeb7944
Just thought you guys might find this interesting. I did a little research on the 'Mr. Mennon' racer that Stuntflyr had mention in a few threads prior. It turns our Mr.Mennen was originally built as RP-39Q-22-BE, also known as a TP-39,(Two Place). The TP-39 were airacobras that were converted into two place trainers by adding a canopy in front of the original. The tail fillet was enlarged and an additional shallow fin was fitted under the rear fuselage. These modifications made it more stable for training new pilots. It was later passed through a succession of civilian owners and restored to a single-seat configuration.

1946 - Sold to civilian, W.H. Ostenberg, as registration #NX4829N and flew as Bendix racer #15.
1950 - Paul Addy of Fosturia, OH
1954 - Archie Baldocchi, Registered as N40A.
1957 - E.D. Weiner of Hayward, CA.
1971 - Mira Slovak "The Flying Czech" -Restored as race #21/Mr. Mennen
1975 - Confederate Airforce TX - flew in early P-400 style markings. Enlarged tail fillet and underfuse fin removed.
1981 - Present - Sold to Kalamazoo Aviation History Museum - Was damaged when car struck building causing wall collapse. Repaired 2001

In 1971, Mira Slovak bought N40A from E.D. Weiner's estate. They restored it with financial help from George Mennen with the intent of racing it at Reno. The planes name was changed to "Mr.Mennen", and marked as racer#21. Unfortunately, due to some circumstances, they arrived late and were not allowed to run the race in Reno. Mira never came back. George Mennen was family member who once owned "The Mennon Company", who was well known for the "Mennen Speed Stick" deodorant, as well as the Mennen skin care products for babies in the 1950's. The Mennen company was the first to create the 'Ladies' speed stick, the first of its kind that allowed others to follow. Not sure but perhaps the "Speed stick" was created from George's competative steak for racing. I can still remember the Mennen TV commercials. "By Mennen" was a successful marketing slogan considering its simplicity. The associated jingle, written by Doug Katsaros, contained just three notes, and ended each television commercial for Mennen products (Here). In 1992 the company was sold to Colgate. Today, none of the Mennen family is involved with in the company, or its company parent.

"Mr.Mennen" photos show that after so many owners, after being converted to a single seater, and after several restorations, the plane still retained the tail fillet as well as the underbody fin. However, these were removed once the plane was sold to the Confederate Air Force. CAF also changed the paint scheme to a P-400 style marking, and flew the plane for several years in the late 1970's. Previous to them owning the plane, Mira Slovak replaced a custom made wrap around windscreen with flat-fronted structure from a P-63.

In 1981, the CAF sold the plane to the Kalamazoo Aviation History Museum. In the late 1990's, the plane was damaged when a car hit the building and a wall collapsed on it. The repairs were completed in 2001. The Kalamazoo museum has had 2 different style markings since it has owned the plane. They had changed the scheme from the P-400 markings to the markings of the 67th FS of the 347 FG, which was based out to New Guinea and Guadalcanal's henderson Field (1942 Era). The squadron's sharkmouth was carried on all aircraft. In fact, Walt Disney designed the "Fighting Cock" which was it's official markings.

One thing is for sure, Airacobra #44-3908 has had an incredible journey.

(P.S. Stuntflyr, now that I know the history, I'm considering Mr.Mennen for a paint scheme. I would make the tail & underbody fillet modifications, of course.)"

 

[MIflyer]

Well, that is the point! The P-400's were painted in RAF Brown and Green and were deployed to Guadalcanal that way. That restoration is marked for the 67th Ftr Squadron when they were on the 'canal and they did not have any sand color applied. It appears to be true that one of the RAF specified Brown colors used in the USA was lighter than what the RAF used but it was not nearly as light as that sand color. What some have called the RAF "sand and spinach" paint scheme never existed. The picture attached below shows P-39's and P-400's and there is no Sand color

Some P-400's still in the UK were sent to the Med for Operation Torch. I guess it is possible they received a desert paint scheme. One of the aircraft sent to Torch is shown below. But even that one does not look like it has a Sand color.

 

[Wurger]

I agree. While the lighter tone of the Earth Brown colour could be caused by fading as well , the Sand wasn't used or it wasn't the factory applied rather.

the pic source: the internet.

Im not sure if the colour images id the original one at 100%. But if it is , the colours can be noticed.

the pic source: Color questions about RAF P-400 sent to Austrailia in 1942

 

[Wurger]

As I had mentioned I saw a such camo with the Sand colour. Here is a part of the instruction for the Print Scale 48-059 Decal for P-39 Airacobra 1/48. As the lighter camo colour they state the Tan - FS30260 that is the Sand paint type. However there are mistakes in the camo layout. For instance , the fin has the darker spot covering almost all fin side while the lighter one was applied on the leading edge and fin top only. The profile shows these colours swapped. Also the colour behind the exhaust pipes seems to be the same dark as the one of the fin side, etc... IMHO the redition is wrong

 

[MIflyer]

Those are great P-400 shots! I have not seen them before and the only ones I have found on the Internet are some small and poor renditions of the same used in the Profile publication. Note that the one with the special camo job is one of the relative few with the high top/bottom demarcation lines. By the way, one reference I found said that the P-39D-1 was in fact a P-400 modified to USAAF configuration with the US oxygen system and a OD/Gray paint job, but retaining the 20MM cannon.

Now, note this reference below. I'll bet you that it was used for the Kalamazoo restoration paint job if nothing else due to wide availability in the US, but look what it says! "Sand (Medium Brown)"!!!!

 

[MIflyer]

Well, one of those links you provided led me to another link that has pictures of a recovered Soviet Airacobra 1. And look at the colors!

 

[Wurger]

Great shots. Undoubtedly these colours are these we talk about. These may be faded a little bit but there is no doubt these are the Dark Green and Brown Earth. It is possible the brown coat is the DuPont Light Earth posted in my post #3. But for sure it isn't any Sand paint. Therefore the info in your instruction for the P400 ( Sand (Medium Brown)) seems to be misleading. The Medium Brown sounds much better than the Sand. Anyway most of images with the Airacobra show them wearing very worn uniforms. For the same reason the P400 in the Print Scale 48-059 Decal instruction got the yellow spots. But for me it is totally wrong. Just the kite had the camo very faded with many underpaintings, possible made of the OD colour. The Brown colours get fadded very quickly in the tropical areas contrary to the USSR where the climate is quite modearte in the European part.

Here is an example. My Airacobra 1/72 scale model being almost 30 years old without the protection of the clear matt varnish. I applied the DG/EB colours on it. A couple of years later I noticed the fading of them, especially of the Brown one. I didn't realize that untill I took it for dusting off. These thin black lines between the white wing tips are decals and one of them peeled off while removing the dust. It revealed the initial Brown colour under that. The Brown colour was obtainded by mixing of the Red and Dark Grey with some of the yellow. Becuase of that the Red started fading as the first tone. The final effect can be seen now. Please notice that the Dark Green faded a little bit too getting the more greenish lighter tinge but not that much the Brown one did.

 

[Wurger]

I have forgotten about the another camo wit the sand colour suggested by the the Print Scale 48-059 Decal for P-39 Airacobra 1/48. But this time they indicate the Yellow Sand paint ( FS 20266 ) And in the same way like for the P-400 above the camo rendition is totally wrong. It can be clearly noticed that there wasn't any Sand yellow colour applied. Oh.. maybe except the serial. Both the OD and DE are faded and the entire rest of the light tone was caused bu the sunlight and overpaintings. What is more there can be seen dark spot under the exhaust pipes but not any yellow and the light tone around the pipes was caused by overheating and discoloration because of the exhaust fumes.