Avro Manchester

[wuzak]

 

[pbehn]

Interesting, it says Avro chose the Vulture, is that how it worked?

 

[wuzak]

Interesting, it says Avro chose the Vulture, is that how it worked?

Not sure they did. Maybe they chose from a few options that the Air Ministry had given them.

 

[pbehn]

Not sure they did. Maybe they chose from a few options that the Air Ministry had given them.

In the initial stages at least they can only choose by what they are told from manufacturers and government.

 

[Gnomey]

Nice one!

 

[GTX]

Manchester catapult trials:

Source

 

[Wurger]

GTX , please source these pics above.

 

[EwenS]

The specification merely said "Engines: British engines which shall have passed the Service type test".

To deliver the rest of the spec meant choosing the RR Vulture as it was about the only British engine in 1936 that held the promise of delivering the required hp.

 

[stona]

Interesting, it says Avro chose the Vulture, is that how it worked?

The Air Ministry did not specify the Vulture for P.13/36, but it gave those tendering few options. At a meeting at the Air Ministry on 29 July 1936, at which various cases were examined, Verney is recorded in the minutes as saying that while the Ministry would not specify the Vulture, in order to achieve the required performance the manufacturers would be 'driven' to use it.

Chadwick persevered with the Vulture for Avro's Type 679 Manchester. It is only in this sense that Avro 'chose' the Vulture. The company did look at the possibility of using the Napier Sabre, which it believed would be a 2,000 h.p. engine, but we all know what happened to that.

Handley Page realised that the aircraft they were designing, also around the Vulture (HP.56), was going to be similar to that they were working on to B1./35 and asked to stop work on that and integrate it into the new design to P.13/36 (HP.57/Halifax). Eventually the Air Ministry asked that this be powered by four Merlins, but not until after representations from Handley Page and George Volkert.

 

[pbehn]

The Air Ministry did not specify the Vulture for P.13/36, but it gave those tendering few options. At a meeting at the Air Ministry on 29 July 1936, at which various cases were examined, Verney is recorded in the minutes as saying that while the Ministry would not specify the Vulture, in order to achieve the required performance the manufacturers would be 'driven' to use it.

Chadwick persevered with the Vulture for Avro's Type 679 Manchester. It is only in this sense that Avro 'chose' the Vulture. The company did look at the possibility of using the Napier Sabre, which it believed would be a 2,000 h.p. engine, but we all know what happened to that.

Handley Page realised that the aircraft they were designing, also around the Vulture (HP.56), was going to be similar to that they were working on to B1./35 and asked to stop work on that and integrate it into the new design to P.13/36 (HP.57/Halifax). Eventually the Air Ministry asked that this be powered by four Merlins, but not until after representations from Handley Page and George Volkert.

Thanks, it just seemed a bit strange, since the engines didnt really exist at the time, the Vulture hadnt been run in 1936.

 

[GTX]

GTX , please source these pics above.

Done

 

[GTX]

Studied variants:

 

[stona]

The four engine Manchester III dated August 1940 was the product of what we would now call a feasibility study carried out by Chadwick and Avro far earlier. They were looking at the Merlin IV in 1938. It was discussed with the Air Ministry 'informally' in February 1939.

Long before the problems with the Vulture were established there was little faith in it and certainly nobody saw much room for development.

Then there was B.1/39 of 6 March 1939.

 

[Wurger]

Done

 

[stona]

Thanks, it just seemed a bit strange, since the engines didnt really exist at the time, the Vulture hadnt been run in 1936.

True enough, design began in September 1935 and testing started in May 1937, which is itself remarkable, but Rolls-Royce were optimistic about the engine, at least to the Air Ministry.

It had potential. The Vulture II was type tested at 1,800 h.p. in August 1939. Even after the reduction in maximum rpm from 3,200 to 3,000, the take off rating was raised to 2,010 h.p. (9lb boost, 100-grade fuel) in March 1941.

If Rolls-Royce had had the time and inclination to really work to sort out the well known issues it could have been a very good engine. Unfortunately they had better things to do, just 508 production Vultures were delivered, making it little more than a footnote in WW2 British aero-engine production.

 

[pbehn]

True enough, design began in September 1935 and testing started in May 1937, which is itself remarkable, but Rolls-Royce were optimistic about the engine, at least to the Air Ministry.

It had potential. The Vulture II was type tested at 1,800 h.p. in August 1939. Even after the reduction in maximum rpm from 3,200 to 3,000, the take off rating was raised to 2,010 h.p. (9lb boost, 100-grade fuel) in March 1941.

If Rolls-Royce had had the time and inclination to really work to sort out the well known issues it could have been a very good engine. Unfortunately they had better things to do, just 508 production Vultures were delivered, making it little more than a footnote in WW2 British aero-engine production.

I think the feasibility study you mentioned was about the time that the Halifax switched to being a 4 engine design. In my opinion it wouldnt have mattered if the Vulture produced 2,500 HP with bullet proof reliability, the Manchester with those engines would have been loaded up fuel bombs and other stuff to the point that losing one engine made it a flying brick.

 

[nuuumannn]

n my opinion it wouldnt have mattered if the Vulture produced 2,500 HP with bullet proof reliability, the Manchester with those engines would have been loaded up fuel bombs and other stuff to the point that losing one engine made it a flying brick.

Yeah, the Manchester had issues... The basic design was good, but its hydraulic and electrical systems proved troublesome. It was an advanced aircraft for its time, certainly the most advanced thing Avro had worked on of their own design. It also suffered aerodynamic issues, vibration in the tail surfaces, inadequate keel area necessitating the fitting of a wooden centre fin, vibration when the top turret was turned, which led to the violent shedding of said centre fin in flight. All sorts of problems that were eventually solved though, which meant that the introduction of the Lancaster was relatively trouble-free.