B-17 and B-24: plausible upgrades?

GregP said:

I don't believe the chart above. If it were true, we'd surely have reports of 10,000 pound bomb loads being used in the war from B-17's on a regular basis. I daresay they might have flown a few, but not many. Once we had airfields in France, if the chart were true, we'd be regularly hauling 10,000 pound bomb loads to Germany ... and we didn't, even at the end of the war, when we surely were within range.

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wuzak said:

I wonder if the 10,000lb "bomb load" is actually 10,000lb military load, including nearly 6000 rounds of ammo?

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B-17G Range vs Bomb Load

This shows 13,000lb internal load @ 1100 mile range, and just over 4000lb at 2500 mile range. It also states that the bomb load includes 2000lb for crew, 1080lb for oil and 1368lb for ammunition. That totals at 4448lb, so the 13,000lb bomb load really is 8552lbs, and the 2500mile range can only be for ferrying.

10,500lb (real bomb load 6000lb) gives a range of 1500 miles,

Same objection applies. We didn't ... why not?

I know it COULD carry 10,000 pounds, but not at the range in your post. I am given to understand that at 10,000 pounds the entire range was less than 600 miles, so the radius would be less than 300 miles minus whatever it took for reserves, explaining why we didn't bomb with 10,000 pounds very often. This comes from B-17 verterans who were crew members in WWII. We have 2 - 3 in our volunteer group. All said they never flew or heard of anyone else flying with 10,000 pounds in the bomb bay. But they DID hit the target with what they had.

Alas, I still didn't manage to find the B-17 manuals today again. But I DID get the covers and hatches back on the Bell YP-59A and it will be on display at our airshow in all it's glory. We are all in airshow mode at this time (May 4 5). We are almost done with the windscreen and finished the sliding canopy more than a year and half ago. Closing in on it .... and can't wait for it to start and taxi and fly under its own power. Hopefuly sometime SOON. I KNOW its close when Steve Hinton is reading and studying the pilot manual for the aircraft. It won't make this year's show as a runner, but will in 2014 ... even if it just taxies. Hopefully, 2014 will be its debut as an airshow performer.

If not, then something extraordinary would have to happen to postpone it. It's that close to being done. The port aileron is being reskinned now and the starboard one is next ... then the instrument panel had to be made and populated. The rest is just about all done.

If it doesn't happen, the culprit will most likely be leaky fuel cells ... but we all hope not. We'd have to de-rivet the wing skins to change them ...

GregP said:

Same objection applies. We didn't ... why not?

I know it COULD carry 10,000 pounds, but not at the range in your post. I am given to understand that at 10,000 pounds the entire range was less than 600 miles, so the radius would be less than 300 miles minus whatever it took for reserves, explaining why we didn't bomb with 10,000 pounds very often. This comes from B-17 verterans who were crew members in WWII. We have 2 - 3 in our volunteer group. All said they never flew or heard of anyone else flying with 10,000 pounds in the bomb bay. But they DID hit the target with what they had.

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You seem to have glossed over the fact that the chart shows that 4448lbs of "bomb load" was actually men, oil and ammo.

It is also my understanding that the B-17 could not be configured to carry 10,000lb of bombs internally. The closest is, maybe, 6 x 1600lb bombs.

It was actually rated for eight 1600lbs internally

B-17F, -G, Fortress Mk. II Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions.pdf‎

Available in the manuals section of this website.

See pages 53 55.

Also see page 98. Basic (NOT empty)weight for B-17F was 41,300lbs:

Including:

Crew nine
nine .50 cal guns
3500 rounds of .50 cal ammo.
144 gallons of oil
1500lbs of wing tankage. (not fuel)

See condition II.

65,000lb gross.

6,000lb inside
4,000lb external
2280 gallons of fuel.

Offhand I don't recall seeing any 8th AF mission with more than 6,000 pound bomb load (2x2000 + 2x1000) for early missions on sub pens 1942-early 1943. After that, probably 95% w/5000 for intermediate, and mostly 4000 pounds for Berlin and beyond.

I do know some experiments were made with bombs on wing bomb racks but the drag penalty was too high to be useful - hence the Aphrodite program.

Shortround6 said:

It was actually rated for eight 1600lbs internally

B-17F, -G, Fortress Mk. II Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions.pdf‎

Available in the manuals section of this website.

See pages 53 55.

Also see page 98. Basic (NOT empty)weight for B-17F was 41,300lbs:

Including:

Crew nine
nine .50 cal guns
3500 rounds of .50 cal ammo.
144 gallons of oil
1500lbs of wing tankage. (not fuel)

See condition II.

65,000lb gross.

6,000lb inside
4,000lb external
2280 gallons of fuel.

Click to expand...

Interestingly page 55 shows only 6 stations can take a 1000lb bomb, racks 1 4 able to take the 1600lb bomb, but not the 1000lb bomb. I wonder if that is because the 1600lb bomb is SAP and is narrower than the 1000lb bomb?

Individual stations did not have load ratings. The maximum load raiting for outboard racks was ~2000lb and ~5000lb for the inboard racks. This link list a good number of homogeneous bomb loads. Note that the chat lists stations 7/28, 10/31, 18/39 for the 1600lb AP bomb. But the hoisting diagram shows the more common 8/29, 11/32, 16/37. My take is the chart lists a load that maximizes space for smaller bombs on the outboard racks. The maximum heterogeneous internal bomb load may be as high as 13,200lbs or six 600lb and six 1600lb AP bombs.