B-17 in ASW?
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fubar57
General
B-24 had a 1000 extra miles on the B-17. Looking for combat radius at the moment
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
Right, the B-24 had a longer radius of action. That's a big reason why the USAAF pulled the B-17 largely out of the PTO and stuffed them instead into 8th AF
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
Tokyo tanks are a much safer mod over the open ocean. Perhaps reduce DC carriage and put fuel into the bomb bay as well?
That's the sort of thing I was thinking of. getting into whiff territory now....
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
That's the sort of thing I was thinking of. getting into whiff territory now....
Agreed, definitely alt-hist, but hey-ho.
Coastal Command received Liberators before B-17s. The RAF's first Coastal Command Liberators entered service in June 1941, although by that time, Bomber Command had 20 B-17Cs, or Fortress Is. Once its disastrous use of these was curtailed and the decision was made by the Air Ministry in October 1941 that the Fortress I was not going to enter service with Bomber Command, the remainder of these aircraft were transferred to Coastal Command in January 1942. Their use was hampered by unserviceability and maintenance headaches. Once the Fortress II entered Coastal Command service in mid 1942, opinion of the Fortress in the RAF changed. By then the Liberator had demonstrated that its range was superior to anything else that Coastal Command had.
ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
The range advantage of the B-24 (along with the myth of the Davis wing low drag coefficient effect on the range) is a myth started by misinformation spread by Consolidated when they were trying to sell their aircraft to the USAAC, and perpetuated by historians. Range tests performed by the RAF and USAAF in 1942 (and again later by the USAAF) as well as 8th AF service evaluations, showed that the B-17 - in actual service - had as good a range or better than the B-24 when carrying the same amount of fuel and war-load. (With the addition of the 'Tokyo tanks' in both aircraft the maximum fuel load was virtually the same.)
Consequently, the USAAF chose to focus on the B-17 in the ETO, with the B-24 only becoming a serious contender due to the inability of Boeing to produce enough B-17s to meet the operational needs of 8th AF - said needs being increasingly large numbers to meet the bombing campaign's expanding sortie rates while still replacing losses.
The B-24 was selected for the the ASW/Maritime Patrol role in the Atlantic and as the primary bomber in the PTO due to its availability. Once the Ford plant came online, the production numbers allowed the B-24 to be sent to the PTO as the main bomber, while supplementing the B-17 in the ETO - with nearly all B-17s being allocated to the ETO. The only war-time advantage the B-24 had in the ASW & Maritime Patrol roles was higher wing loading (37-55 lb/ft2 vs 27-41 lb/ft2) as said higher wing loading gave a more comfortable ride at low altitudes.
NOTE that post-war, only the low-altitude engined PB4Ys were kept in service for any length of time, operating alongside the PB-1 (converted B-17G) as ASW & Maritime Patrol.
Attached below are the results of the 1942 USAAF range tests and the results of a very late-war 'efficiency' comparison of the B-17/B-24/B-29 performed by the USAAF. NOTE that the range advantage of the B-17 was still apparent in the very late-war analysis. FWIW the post-war ACPs and SACs indicate the same advantage in range of the B-17 over the B-24, with the lower altitude rated engined PB4Y-2 (B-24 with single-tail and nont-turbocharged engines) having approximately the same effective range as the PB-1.
Somewhere on the internet here is also a range test of the B-24 done by the RAF that shows up the inaccuracy of the range estimates provided by Consolidated. I thought I had it downloaded but cannot at the moment find it. I will keep looking as it gets into some of the details of the problem with the B-24 meeting Consolidated's range estimates.
Consequently, the USAAF chose to focus on the B-17 in the ETO, with the B-24 only becoming a serious contender due to the inability of Boeing to produce enough B-17s to meet the operational needs of 8th AF - said needs being increasingly large numbers to meet the bombing campaign's expanding sortie rates while still replacing losses.
The B-24 was selected for the the ASW/Maritime Patrol role in the Atlantic and as the primary bomber in the PTO due to its availability. Once the Ford plant came online, the production numbers allowed the B-24 to be sent to the PTO as the main bomber, while supplementing the B-17 in the ETO - with nearly all B-17s being allocated to the ETO. The only war-time advantage the B-24 had in the ASW & Maritime Patrol roles was higher wing loading (37-55 lb/ft2 vs 27-41 lb/ft2) as said higher wing loading gave a more comfortable ride at low altitudes.
NOTE that post-war, only the low-altitude engined PB4Ys were kept in service for any length of time, operating alongside the PB-1 (converted B-17G) as ASW & Maritime Patrol.
Attached below are the results of the 1942 USAAF range tests and the results of a very late-war 'efficiency' comparison of the B-17/B-24/B-29 performed by the USAAF. NOTE that the range advantage of the B-17 was still apparent in the very late-war analysis. FWIW the post-war ACPs and SACs indicate the same advantage in range of the B-17 over the B-24, with the lower altitude rated engined PB4Y-2 (B-24 with single-tail and nont-turbocharged engines) having approximately the same effective range as the PB-1.
Somewhere on the internet here is also a range test of the B-24 done by the RAF that shows up the inaccuracy of the range estimates provided by Consolidated. I thought I had it downloaded but cannot at the moment find it. I will keep looking as it gets into some of the details of the problem with the B-24 meeting Consolidated's range estimates.
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- Thread starter
- #12
Was it that VLR (Very Long Range) Liberators outfitted with additional fuel in one bomb bay edged out the B-17 in range? One reads about 16+ hour sorties of said B-24.
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Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,002
- Sep 30, 2021
RAF Performance Figures, Fortress I in 1941, at 53,500 pounds, imperial gallons
7,400 pounds of bombs, 1,415 gallons of fuel, 1,900 miles at 240mph at 30,000 feet
no bombs, 2,075 gallons of fuel, 2,900 miles at 240mph at 30,000 feet
no bombs, 2,075 gallons of fuel, 3,000 miles at 225mph at 30,000 feet
USAAF via Roger Freeman, B-17C/D, US Gallons
49,650 pounds, no bombs, 2,492 gallons of fuel, 3,400 miles at 180 mph at 10,000 feet
48,500 pounds, 4,000 pounds of bombs, 1,700 gallons of fuel, 2,000 miles at 250 mph at 25,000 feet
39,320 pounds, 2,000 pounds of bombs, 544 gallons of fuel, 625 miles at 245 mph at 25,000 feet
The USN
The 8th Air force reported its average B-17 load was 5,139.4 pounds per effective sortie, B-24 5,321 pounds, for 1944 B-17 MIA + Category E rate was 2.02% of credit sorties, B-24 1.82%. Meantime the 15th Air Force said destroyed + MIA were 1.49% of B-17 effective sorties, B-24 2.04%, average bomb load B-17 5,289.5 pounds, B-17 4,497.9. The 15th Air Force summary says B-17 combat loss was 1.32%, average bomb load 4,661.5 pounds, B-24 1.7% 3,761.4 pounds because it uses airborne, not effective sorties. As always be careful about what is being measured.
In Burma as of July 1944 RAF B-24 raids on Bangkok, range 1,100 miles, carried 3,000 pounds of bombs, experiments raised the load to 8,000 pounds, bombing strikes were then done at up to 1,400 miles from bases.
Britain received 20 B-17C as Fortress I April to June 1941, then 64 B-17E and F as Fortress II and IIA March 1942 to May 1943, these correspond to 45 B-17E delivered in the US January to June 1942 and 19 B-17F delivered in the US August to October 1942, apart from any theatre transfers in late 1943 the first Tokyo Tank versions were the B-17G/Fortress III received in February 1944.
Boeing delivered 30 B-17G for Britain January to April 1944 and Lockheed 48 May to August 1944, 15 October/November 1944 and 10 January/February 1945, total 103, Britain reports receiving 98 Fortress III February 1944 to April 1945.
In 1941 the US had concerns about the time B-24 modifications were taking in Britain before service as anti submarine aircraft, including increasing fuel capacity, the increase leading to reports of a 2,400 mile "operational range"
As of end February 1943, Coastal Command held 5 Fortress I, 2 Fortress II and 29 Fortress IIA, Canada had 2 Fortress II and 1 IIA, 1 II and 3 IIA were for Overseas Ferry Command, out of 6 I, 19 II and 40 IIA on strength. Losses were 2 I to instructional, 2 I and 1 IIA to USAAF, 8 I and 4 IIA in UK, 2 I overseas, out of 20 I, 19 II and 45 IIA delivered to date.
Coastal Command reports the average B-24 sortie duration in hours by year 1941 to 1945 was 10.88 (from 51 sorties), 10.92, 12.27, 11.68, 10.65, B-17 1942 to 1945 was 8.86, 9.74, 11.35, 13.55 (from 11 sorties). For the war B-24 11,411 sorties, 131,551 hours, 87 losses, B-17 2,720 sorties, 27,654 hours, 13 losses
7,400 pounds of bombs, 1,415 gallons of fuel, 1,900 miles at 240mph at 30,000 feet
no bombs, 2,075 gallons of fuel, 2,900 miles at 240mph at 30,000 feet
no bombs, 2,075 gallons of fuel, 3,000 miles at 225mph at 30,000 feet
USAAF via Roger Freeman, B-17C/D, US Gallons
49,650 pounds, no bombs, 2,492 gallons of fuel, 3,400 miles at 180 mph at 10,000 feet
48,500 pounds, 4,000 pounds of bombs, 1,700 gallons of fuel, 2,000 miles at 250 mph at 25,000 feet
39,320 pounds, 2,000 pounds of bombs, 544 gallons of fuel, 625 miles at 245 mph at 25,000 feet
The USN
| Characteristic | Units | PB4Y-1 | as | of | 1-Nov-44 | PB4Y-1 | PB4Y-1 | PB4Y-2 | as | of | 1-Jul-44 | PB4Y-2 | PB4Y-2 |
| Loading Condition | Type | Patrol | Patrol | Bomber | Bomber | Bomber | Ferry | Patrol | Patrol | Patrol | Bomber | Anti Submarine | Ferry |
| Gross Weight | Pounds | 60,000 | 62,900 | 63,000 | 63,000 | 63,000 | 62,000 | 64,000 | 61,950 | 61,950 | 64,000 | 64,000 | 65,000 |
| Fuel | Gallons | 2,814 | 3,214 | 3,063 | 2,019 | 1,272 | 3,614 | 3,020 | 2,764 | 2,868 | 1,881 | 3,050 | 3,716 |
| Bomb load | No. x Pounds | 0 | 0 | 2x500 | 8x1,000 | 8x1,600 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8x1,000 | 0 | 0 |
| Depth Bombs | No. x Pounds | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 6x650 | 0 |
| Bomb Bay Tanks Droppable | No. x Gallons | 0 | 1x400 | 1x400 | 0 | 0 | 2x400 | 2x400 | 1x400 | 2x400 | 0 | 2x400 | 4x400 |
| Max Range | Statute Miles | 3,090 | 3,440 | 3,260 | 2,065 | 1,255 | 4,190 | 2,780 | 2,590 | 2,630 | 1,560 | 2,800 | 3,650 |
| Max Range Average Speed | MPH | 149 | 151 | 148 | 154 | 155 | 153 | 140 | 138 | 141 | 144 | 140 | 146 |
| Max Endure./Range Altitude | Feet | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 | 1,500 |
The 8th Air force reported its average B-17 load was 5,139.4 pounds per effective sortie, B-24 5,321 pounds, for 1944 B-17 MIA + Category E rate was 2.02% of credit sorties, B-24 1.82%. Meantime the 15th Air Force said destroyed + MIA were 1.49% of B-17 effective sorties, B-24 2.04%, average bomb load B-17 5,289.5 pounds, B-17 4,497.9. The 15th Air Force summary says B-17 combat loss was 1.32%, average bomb load 4,661.5 pounds, B-24 1.7% 3,761.4 pounds because it uses airborne, not effective sorties. As always be careful about what is being measured.
In Burma as of July 1944 RAF B-24 raids on Bangkok, range 1,100 miles, carried 3,000 pounds of bombs, experiments raised the load to 8,000 pounds, bombing strikes were then done at up to 1,400 miles from bases.
Britain received 20 B-17C as Fortress I April to June 1941, then 64 B-17E and F as Fortress II and IIA March 1942 to May 1943, these correspond to 45 B-17E delivered in the US January to June 1942 and 19 B-17F delivered in the US August to October 1942, apart from any theatre transfers in late 1943 the first Tokyo Tank versions were the B-17G/Fortress III received in February 1944.
Boeing delivered 30 B-17G for Britain January to April 1944 and Lockheed 48 May to August 1944, 15 October/November 1944 and 10 January/February 1945, total 103, Britain reports receiving 98 Fortress III February 1944 to April 1945.
In 1941 the US had concerns about the time B-24 modifications were taking in Britain before service as anti submarine aircraft, including increasing fuel capacity, the increase leading to reports of a 2,400 mile "operational range"
As of end February 1943, Coastal Command held 5 Fortress I, 2 Fortress II and 29 Fortress IIA, Canada had 2 Fortress II and 1 IIA, 1 II and 3 IIA were for Overseas Ferry Command, out of 6 I, 19 II and 40 IIA on strength. Losses were 2 I to instructional, 2 I and 1 IIA to USAAF, 8 I and 4 IIA in UK, 2 I overseas, out of 20 I, 19 II and 45 IIA delivered to date.
Coastal Command reports the average B-24 sortie duration in hours by year 1941 to 1945 was 10.88 (from 51 sorties), 10.92, 12.27, 11.68, 10.65, B-17 1942 to 1945 was 8.86, 9.74, 11.35, 13.55 (from 11 sorties). For the war B-24 11,411 sorties, 131,551 hours, 87 losses, B-17 2,720 sorties, 27,654 hours, 13 losses
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ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
re
"Was it that VLR (Very Long Range) Liberators outfitted with additional fuel in one bomb bay edged out the B.17 in range? One reads about 16+ hour sorties of said B-24."
This page from the "B-17/B-24 range comparison" file I posted above, provides the maximum range at best cruise for each aircraft (marked in red below).
Without bomb bay tanks the B-17F could carry a maximum of 2780 USgal, while the B-24D could carry 2774 USgal, in both cases this leaves 2500 USgal (as used in the tests) for range after reaching 10,000 ft. In both cases the amount of fuel required for WUTTO and climb to 10,000 ft was about the same (ie 280 USgal for the B-17 and 274 USgal for the B-24) and is already subtracted from the total fuel load, leaving 2500 USgal for range.
You can see that under similar conditions the B-17E outranges the B-24D, despite the B-17E using more HP and cruising at a 25 mph TAS higher speed. The B-17E was an aerodynamically cleaner airframe. (NOTE that both aircraft became draggier as the war went on.)
With Bomb bay tanks the B-17F could carry a maximum of 3600 USgal (2780 + 820) and the B-24D could carry 3614 USgal (2774 + 820). (NOTE that the max fuel load for the B-24 - any variant, including the VLR version - does not exceed these numbers.)
I found the following from the range charts in the PFOI manuals for the PB4Y-1 and B-17F:
For the PB4Y-1 with 3614 USgal you get a range of 4190 miles when flying at 1,500 ft and 153 mph TAS, yielding an endurance (ie time aloft) of 27.38 hrs, but they used only about 160 USgal for WUTTO and climb to 1,500 ft.
For the B-17F with 3600 USgal you get a range of 4420 miles, but at a slightly higher speed of 160 mph TAS at and at a higher altitude of 5,000 ft, yielding about the same time aloft of 27.6 hrs.
NOTE that it is possible that the range for the B-17F might be lower at 1,500 ft than at 5,000 ft altitude (I do not have any charts for the B-17F at 1,500 ft) but I do not have any reason to think this is the case.
"Was it that VLR (Very Long Range) Liberators outfitted with additional fuel in one bomb bay edged out the B.17 in range? One reads about 16+ hour sorties of said B-24."
This page from the "B-17/B-24 range comparison" file I posted above, provides the maximum range at best cruise for each aircraft (marked in red below).
Without bomb bay tanks the B-17F could carry a maximum of 2780 USgal, while the B-24D could carry 2774 USgal, in both cases this leaves 2500 USgal (as used in the tests) for range after reaching 10,000 ft. In both cases the amount of fuel required for WUTTO and climb to 10,000 ft was about the same (ie 280 USgal for the B-17 and 274 USgal for the B-24) and is already subtracted from the total fuel load, leaving 2500 USgal for range.
You can see that under similar conditions the B-17E outranges the B-24D, despite the B-17E using more HP and cruising at a 25 mph TAS higher speed. The B-17E was an aerodynamically cleaner airframe. (NOTE that both aircraft became draggier as the war went on.)
With Bomb bay tanks the B-17F could carry a maximum of 3600 USgal (2780 + 820) and the B-24D could carry 3614 USgal (2774 + 820). (NOTE that the max fuel load for the B-24 - any variant, including the VLR version - does not exceed these numbers.)
I found the following from the range charts in the PFOI manuals for the PB4Y-1 and B-17F:
For the PB4Y-1 with 3614 USgal you get a range of 4190 miles when flying at 1,500 ft and 153 mph TAS, yielding an endurance (ie time aloft) of 27.38 hrs, but they used only about 160 USgal for WUTTO and climb to 1,500 ft.
For the B-17F with 3600 USgal you get a range of 4420 miles, but at a slightly higher speed of 160 mph TAS at and at a higher altitude of 5,000 ft, yielding about the same time aloft of 27.6 hrs.
NOTE that it is possible that the range for the B-17F might be lower at 1,500 ft than at 5,000 ft altitude (I do not have any charts for the B-17F at 1,500 ft) but I do not have any reason to think this is the case.
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As I've pointed out before in other posts on CC Liberators, there were a variety of wing fuel tank fits, before fuselage tanks were even taken into consideration. Some aircraft had the outboard wing tanks, some did not, and in still others they were non operational. Depending on that position 1 or 2 bomb bay tanks could be carried to bring the fuel load up to that required.
May 1943 per CC instructions All Up Weight was restricted to 60,000lb. Fuel load for Class A & B aircraft was brought up to 2,500 Imp Gals giving an Operational Range of 2,300 nautical miles. Again dependent on fit, the Disposable load varied from 2,000lb (8 DC) to 4,500lb (16 DC). In "Special Circumstances" (undefined) the Class A aircraft could be fitted with bomb bay tanks to increase their range to 2,650 nautical miles at the cost of reducing the Disposable Load to 1,800lbs.
Class C aircraft had 1,900 Imp Gal of fuel in the wing tanks for a Range of 1,600nm carryimg 16 DC.
These instructions were revised in Nov 1943 with VLR aircraft specified as having an Operational Range of 2,300 nm at 4,000ft. "This should be obtainable with 2,560 imperial gallons. The endurance will be approximately 16 hours." What tanks were then to be fitted to achieve that and their armament fits were then specified in detail.
From Nov 1943 Long Range aircraft were to have an Operational Range of 1,900 nm at 4,000ft at economical cruise speed with endurance approx 13 hours. Again the various armament and equipment fits were specified in detail. When the Mk.VI came along in early 1944, in LR configuration its Operational Range was to be 1,600nm.
May 1943 per CC instructions All Up Weight was restricted to 60,000lb. Fuel load for Class A & B aircraft was brought up to 2,500 Imp Gals giving an Operational Range of 2,300 nautical miles. Again dependent on fit, the Disposable load varied from 2,000lb (8 DC) to 4,500lb (16 DC). In "Special Circumstances" (undefined) the Class A aircraft could be fitted with bomb bay tanks to increase their range to 2,650 nautical miles at the cost of reducing the Disposable Load to 1,800lbs.
Class C aircraft had 1,900 Imp Gal of fuel in the wing tanks for a Range of 1,600nm carryimg 16 DC.
These instructions were revised in Nov 1943 with VLR aircraft specified as having an Operational Range of 2,300 nm at 4,000ft. "This should be obtainable with 2,560 imperial gallons. The endurance will be approximately 16 hours." What tanks were then to be fitted to achieve that and their armament fits were then specified in detail.
From Nov 1943 Long Range aircraft were to have an Operational Range of 1,900 nm at 4,000ft at economical cruise speed with endurance approx 13 hours. Again the various armament and equipment fits were specified in detail. When the Mk.VI came along in early 1944, in LR configuration its Operational Range was to be 1,600nm.
- Thread starter
- #16
Admiral Beez
Major
The RAF used the B-17 for Coastal Command work, including ASW.
And check out that experimental 40mm nose gun!
I think you're a day late in the conversation. Coastal Command received its Liberators before Fortresses. As I mentioned, the first Fortress Is did not arrive with Coastal Command until January 1942, while the first Liberators arrived six months earlier. The Fortress Mk.II, pictured in your image above entered Coastal Command service in mid-1942.
The one issue with the supply of Fortresses in lieu of Liberators to the British was availability. The Liberator was built to British contracts from the outset, while the Fortress was not. The 20 Fortresses that Bomber Command received were a part of an experiment, therefore the USAAC/F was keen to pass these aircraft on to observe how they might operate in combat - badly, as it turned out. In mid-1941 the availability of Fortresses was low. The USA's most numerous bomber was the B-18 Bolo, so there was a move to get more B-17s into service as quickly as possible. The British experience with the Fortress I proved that it was certainly not ready for combat in its existing guise (B-17C) and the type needed work to operate in a European environment. Meanwhile, Liberators were being built specifically to meet British needs.
ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
re
Numbers. The B-17 and B-24 both operated in the ETO because they came online (in large numbers) with the USAAF only about a year(?) apart - and although the USAAF looked at using only the B-17 in the ETO, there were never enough B-17s at the time to do so. The B-24 (~18,000) ended up being produced in larger numbers than the B-17 (~12,000) and the need for large numbers of bombers in the PTO lagged behind the need in the ETO, so it was possible to supplement the B-17 numbers in the ETO with B-24s, and the B-24s not needed in the ETO were sent to the PTO/CBI, giving the theater a bomber similar in capabilities to the B-17 while simplifying the supply chain.
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Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 1,002
- Sep 30, 2021
The USAAF made some choices,
B-17 phased out of operations against Japan in 1943
B-25 not used in the ETO
B-26 present in Alaska until late 1942 and at Midway, otherwise not used against Japan.
P-39 not used in the ETO, not sent to India
P-40 not used in the ETO
P-51 Allison engine fighter used in India
The 8th Air Force had 21 B-17 and 19 B-24 groups in June 1944, it converted 5 B-24 groups to B-17 to have 26 B-17 to 13 B-24 in mid September giving 2 divisions of B-17 and 1 of B-24 instead of 1 B-17, 1 B-24, 1 mixed, then sent 1 B-24 group home in November 1944.
According to the USAAF Statistical Digest, 1st Line heavy Bombers, B-24 strength was around 60 to 70% of B-17 from around mid 1942 to April 1943, then a surge to parity in October 1943, then to around a third more in May 1944, peak was 40% more in April 1945, by December it was down to 79%.
As of end February 1943 the RAF reported it had been delivered 25 out of 26 Liberator I ordered, 91 out of 139 Liberator II. The USAAF reports accepting 6 LB-30A/YB-24 for a British contract in December 1940, 20 LB-30B/B-24A March to May 1941 and 139 LB-30 August 1941 to January 1942 from an ex French contract, by which time the USAAF had received the XB-24/XB-24B, 1 B-24, 9 B-24A, 8 B-24C and 4 B-24D. Not surprising 75 LB-30 were initially delivered to the USAAF, of which it ultimately retained 50. Exports were 6 LB-30A February to May 1941, 18 LB-30B March and April 1941 plus 1 in August, 64 LB-30 August to December 1941, then another 23 March to September 1942.
The B-24/LB-30 being built in 1940/early 1941 were not combat worthy, the B-17C built in 1940 and the D in early 1941 were thought to be combat worthy.
Also LB-30 AL503 crashed under test, it is not counted in the USAAF production reports, being replaced by FP685, giving 140 LB-30 built, 139 accepted. Production and version designation of the Consolidated 4 engine heavy bombers accepted in 1940/41 is rather confusing.
B-17 phased out of operations against Japan in 1943
B-25 not used in the ETO
B-26 present in Alaska until late 1942 and at Midway, otherwise not used against Japan.
P-39 not used in the ETO, not sent to India
P-40 not used in the ETO
P-51 Allison engine fighter used in India
The 8th Air Force had 21 B-17 and 19 B-24 groups in June 1944, it converted 5 B-24 groups to B-17 to have 26 B-17 to 13 B-24 in mid September giving 2 divisions of B-17 and 1 of B-24 instead of 1 B-17, 1 B-24, 1 mixed, then sent 1 B-24 group home in November 1944.
According to the USAAF Statistical Digest, 1st Line heavy Bombers, B-24 strength was around 60 to 70% of B-17 from around mid 1942 to April 1943, then a surge to parity in October 1943, then to around a third more in May 1944, peak was 40% more in April 1945, by December it was down to 79%.
As of end February 1943 the RAF reported it had been delivered 25 out of 26 Liberator I ordered, 91 out of 139 Liberator II. The USAAF reports accepting 6 LB-30A/YB-24 for a British contract in December 1940, 20 LB-30B/B-24A March to May 1941 and 139 LB-30 August 1941 to January 1942 from an ex French contract, by which time the USAAF had received the XB-24/XB-24B, 1 B-24, 9 B-24A, 8 B-24C and 4 B-24D. Not surprising 75 LB-30 were initially delivered to the USAAF, of which it ultimately retained 50. Exports were 6 LB-30A February to May 1941, 18 LB-30B March and April 1941 plus 1 in August, 64 LB-30 August to December 1941, then another 23 March to September 1942.
The B-24/LB-30 being built in 1940/early 1941 were not combat worthy, the B-17C built in 1940 and the D in early 1941 were thought to be combat worthy.
Also LB-30 AL503 crashed under test, it is not counted in the USAAF production reports, being replaced by FP685, giving 140 LB-30 built, 139 accepted. Production and version designation of the Consolidated 4 engine heavy bombers accepted in 1940/41 is rather confusing.
