BEAUFIGHTER Mark VI W/Hercules engines GPH fuel info

[mhuxt]

Such a fascinating thread about a tragic loss. One of the original doccos in the first pdf file states the crew in the water were covered until dusk. So I assume the rescue launches weren't able to get to the scene in time, and were then unable to locate any sign of the men in the heavy seas.

 

[theramin]

there is no indication of take off time that I can find. No flight plan has surfaced. I'm guessing 12:00 pm? I understand it was about a 5.5 hour flight or so? thank you for really going to the wall on this one. Your expertise is opening up a lot of new avenues of research.

Regards, Jamie

I have put a request in with an ex 272 observer with these specific questions. Hope to hear within the month.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I have put a request in with an ex 272 observer with these specific questions. Hope to hear within the month.

That would be great!!!

 

[theramin]

That would be great!!!

Hi Joe, Jamie here with some 'updates' on the fuel calculations we've talked about.

I heard back from an observer for 272 squadron who made similar runs. I asked him specific questions about trip time, cruising altitude, air speed etc. I got a partial answer and have asked him for clarification in a seperate letter. We should get an answer within the month.

For now I've included his initial thoughts on the flights he did as well as an initial analysis of some weather data that I sourced from the Malta Airport archives through a contact there.

Hope you can share some thoughts on this. Thanks for your help along the way. I've found a bit more regarding the search crew from 229 squadron and some other items as well.

Cheers, Jamie aka Theramin

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi Jamie;

Fascinating information! I think the information from Mr. Bellis reinforces my theory. With the reported Beaufort force at 5, I would suspect at altitude the winds would be a lot stronger, possibly putting them into headwinds in excess of 30 mph or stronger. It could have been very possible that when they left Heliopolis they had "good" weather but en route flew into heavy winds or even a storm. My original calculations are based on an average with regards to headwinds. They could have potentially hit headwinds in excess of the reported 45 mph gusts as they were approaching Malta. I haven't seen anything referring to a Beaufort Scale in years!

 

[theramin]

Hi Jamie;

Fascinating information! I think the information from Mr. Bellis reinforces my theory. With the reported Beaufort force at 5, I would suspect at altitude the winds would be a lot stronger, possibly putting them into headwinds in excess of 30 mph or stronger. It could have been very possible that when they left Heliopolis they had "good" weather but en route flew into heavy winds or even a storm. My original calculations are based on an average with regards to headwinds. They could have potentially hit headwinds in excess of the reported 45 mph gusts as they were approaching Malta. I haven't seen anything referring to a Beaufort Scale in years!

Hello again Joe Jamie here - I heard back from a 27 squadron navigator who flew the Egypt to Malta run a few times in 1943. He sent me a little bit more info and I quote:

'The average cruising height between Egypt and Malta would be about 150 feet or about 45 metres. In other words, high enough to be comfortable above the sea but low enough to avoid detection by any ME 109 and Machi 202's that may be around. I sent you the entries from my log book, so you can calculate the speed.'

Sounds quite low! I wonder if this has any bearing on the calculations you did. As far as the logbook mention I'll have to go back to some other letters he wrote.

Thank you so much Joe for taking the time to explore this fascinating subject with me sir! Jamie

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hello again Joe Jamie here - I heard back from a 27 squadron navigator who flew the Egypt to Malta run a few times in 1943. He sent me a little bit more info and I quote:

'The average cruising height between Egypt and Malta would be about 150 feet or about 45 metres. In other words, high enough to be comfortable above the sea but low enough to avoid detection by any ME 109 and Machi 202's that may be around. I sent you the entries from my log book, so you can calculate the speed.'

Sounds quite low! I wonder if this has any bearing on the calculations you did. As far as the logbook mention I'll have to go back to some other letters he wrote.

Thank you so much Joe for taking the time to explore this fascinating subject with me sir! Jamie

Hi Jamie;

This is important - they will definitely burn more fuel flying basically on the deck. You might want to look at his letters to see about cruising speeds during these flights. This may affect my calculations if they were on the deck flying above published cruise speeds, but I think the evidence is still there that they encountered some pretty heavy head winds. Even at an altitude of 150 feet, they may be encountering winds higher than what is reported on the surface.

 

[theramin]

Hi Jamie;

This is important - they will definitely burn more fuel flying basically on the deck. You might want to look at his letters to see about cruising speeds during these flights. This may affect my calculations if they were on the deck flying above published cruise speeds, but I think the evidence is still there that they encountered some pretty heavy head winds. Even at an altitude of 150 feet, they may be encountering winds higher than what is reported on the surface.

thanks again i will take a look and/or request a clarification. cheers jamie

 

[glennasher]

I'd have to think that a Beaufighter would ditch like a brick, in heavy seas or light. At 150 feet, there wouldn't be time or altitude to bail out.
Two big motors and all those guns, all up front.................

 

[theramin]

Hi Jamie;

This is important - they will definitely burn more fuel flying basically on the deck. You might want to look at his letters to see about cruising speeds during these flights. This may affect my calculations if they were on the deck flying above published cruise speeds, but I think the evidence is still there that they encountered some pretty heavy head winds. Even at an altitude of 150 feet, they may be encountering winds higher than what is reported on the surface.

Hey Flyboy Jamie here again. Been working on some other historical research - got in touch with some other flyers in 272 squadron, trying to talk to some of the search party, lots of digging. Just went through some of the letters I had received with regards to calculating flying speed (what we had talked about). No actual numbers of m.p.h. but some specific flying times. Maybe this will be of interest. Please also find attached some incredible photos I found from a fellow pilot's son D.K. BROADHEAD from the period. my great uncle can be seen sitting to the very right in one shot with his observer Johnson on his right. Most likely taken April 7th, 1943 (based on squadron reports).

"I now have some details of flying times from Malta to Egypt and back.

1. At the middle of Jan we flew a Beaufighter direct from Edku (Alexandria) to Takali and it took 6 hours.
2. In the middle of June we flew direct from Takali to (G224 (?) in 5 hrs 15 min.
3. Coming back a few days later we flew Heliopolis – Benina (in Benghazi) in 3hrs 20 min then from Benina – Takali in 2hrs 10 mins.

In the case of your great uncle, he and Coleman must have met a sudden storm with headwinds. The storm would explain why your great uncle had to bail out instead of ditching, which would not be difficult if the sea was calm"

 

[theramin]

I'd have to think that a Beaufighter would ditch like a brick, in heavy seas or light. At 150 feet, there wouldn't be time or altitude to bail out.
Two big motors and all those guns, all up front.................

I agree. It appears that they were seen to jump into the sea. What I'd like to know is how far further the plane 'flew' on ahead on it's remaining fuel supply. I'm no expert but I would assume they wouldn't have waited until the fuel ran out to jump being only 150 feet up. It must still have been running on fumes.

 

[theramin]

Hi - I wanted to mention that I have produced a short documentary on my great uncle in 272 squadron and this accident. I have used some of this data with thanks. I hope you enjoy it:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...cumentary-available-online-viewing-25761.html

Or go directly to this hyperlink:

FREDERICK DUQUETTE - FOR FAMILY AND COUNTRY 2010 wmv.wmv - 4shared.com - file sharing - download movie file

 

[niccoleman]

GBS Coleman was my uncle. Yes, he was lost over the Channel, out of fuel. However the likely cause of this was instrument failure in low visibility.