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Hi Hardwarefreak,
>1. Excellent stable gun platform, no engine torque or rudder trim issues
Hm, the British Purchasing Commission noted that the P-38 required constant directional re-trimming after each power change because the two engines would never arrive at exactly the same power setting.
>2. Tightly grouped/focused battery of 5 guns
We agree on that. Have you seen the animated GIF above?
>No matter where the stream hit, serious structural damage was a result. Engine, wingroot, outer wing panel, cockpit, rear fuselage, tail--it didn't really matter.
Do you have a source on that?
>This also would have yielded a cyclic battery rate of about 106 rounds/sec (assuming 800 rds/sec per gun) firing in a spread of about 2 ft x 3 ft.
Since you are new to this thread, please check out the paragraph on the "shotgun misunderstanding" above.
A report on the Fw 190A-3 prepared by the Oxfordness Research station concludes that in an astern attack, neither 20 mm H.S. A.P., 20 mm H.E./T. (Fuze 253) nor 20 mm S.A.P./I. were able to penetrate the Fw 190's pilot armour when fired from a 10 degree sector after of the plane. The deflection of the projectiles by the aircraft skin and - when it came to the head armour - by the vertical tail was enough to reduce their penetration abilities to a fraction of the nominal value. It was not possible for any of the rounds (including 0.5" A.P.) to penetrate the engine cowling and damage the engine in this type of attack.
With regard to the fuel tanks, the effect you mention is specially stressed:
"The angle of the fuselage with this line of attack is 6 degrees and this gives 0.303" B. Mk.VIII and 0.5" B. Mk.II no chance of causing a fire. These ammunitions will for the most part be deflected or broken up on the 19 s.w.g. fuselage skin; larger angles off tail would make these ammunitions more effective. The detonation of 20 mm. H.E./I. on, or just after, passing through the skin also minimises its chances of producing a fire unless the strike is within 3' of the tank compartment bulkhead."
In fact, 20 mm H.E./I. and S.A.P./I. were the only incendiaries that could damage the tanks at all: "The smaller calibre incendiary ammunitions will either be broken up or deflected away before reaching the fuel tanks."
The RAF definitely had good reasons to leap-frog from 7.7 mm machine guns to 20 mm cannon, skipping the intermediate 12.7 mm calibre. The effectiveness of heavy machine guns for air-to-air combat was not what popular perception today would imagine ...
I have read that there were experimental P-38 field installations of 8 .50s in the nose with the Hispano removed. If the additional 4 guns also had 500 rds each that would be a total of 4000 rds of .50 cal per sortie. This also would have yielded a cyclic battery rate of about 106 rounds/sec (assuming 800 rds/sec per gun) firing in a spread of about 2 ft x 3 ft. The article I read didn't go into detail, but I'm guessing that, sadly, these 'gunship' P-38s were likely used mostly for ground attack in the Pacific theater. Oh, but what an awesome air-air gun battery this would have been. The firepower of a P-47 all packed tightly into the nose. If the weight of those extra 4 Brownings and the additional ammo didn't completely unbalance the aircraft, and it could still dogfight, my oh my what a predator this 8 gun P-38 would have been.
Hi Hardwarefreak,
>A report on the Fw 190A-3 prepared by the Oxfordness Research station concludes that in an astern attack, neither 20 mm H.S. A.P., 20 mm H.E./T. (Fuze 253) nor 20 mm S.A.P./I. were able to penetrate the Fw 190's pilot armour when fired from a 10 degree sector after of the plane. The deflection of the projectiles by the aircraft skin and - when it came to the head armour - by the vertical tail was enough to reduce their penetration abilities to a fraction of the nominal value. It was not possible for any of the rounds (including 0.5" A.P.) to penetrate the engine cowling and damage the engine in this type of attack.
With regard to the fuel tanks, the effect you mention is specially stressed:
"The angle of the fuselage with this line of attack is 6 degrees and this gives 0.303" B. Mk.VIII and 0.5" B. Mk.II no chance of causing a fire. These ammunitions will for the most part be deflected or broken up on the 19 s.w.g. fuselage skin; larger angles off tail would make these ammunitions more effective. The detonation of 20 mm. H.E./I. on, or just after, passing through the skin also minimises its chances of producing a fire unless the strike is within 3' of the tank compartment bulkhead."
What caused all the explosions in the fuselages of 109s and 190s when hit by .50 API? Pilot carelessness in lighting cigarettes while being shot down?
In fact, 20 mm H.E./I. and S.A.P./I. were the only incendiaries that could damage the tanks at all: "The smaller calibre incendiary ammunitions will either be broken up or deflected away before reaching the fuel tanks."
The RAF definitely had good reasons to leap-frog from 7.7 mm machine guns to 20 mm cannon, skipping the intermediate 12.7 mm calibre. The effectiveness of heavy machine guns for air-to-air combat was not what popular perception today would imagine ...
>
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Since armor protection layout seems to be arranged to protect from 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock on most WW2 fighters I'm not surprised it doesn't protect well against strafing aircraft.
Dragon
Remember those RAF tests were at an angle of 10 degrees or less. At angles greater than that the ability of the skin to deflect rounds greatly decreases.
Also without having the actual testing procedures in front of us the results could be quite questionable. The RAF firing trials that I have read almost all
have been based on single shots fired, not on bursts from a single or multiple gun battery. Of course this could give quite different results.
Slaterat
It not the number of projectiles that makes a battery destructive, it is (unsurprisingly) the destructiveness of the projectiles that makes a battery destructive.
Hi Hardwarefreak,
3) And I don't consider a new account created exclusively for participating in a controversial thread a good basis to ask such question ...
Which "same post" are you referring to? This looks like another misunderstanding ...
Here is the firepower comparison again:
Me 262: 20,1 MW
Fw 190A-8/R2: 13 MW
Ta 152H: 7,6 MW
Fw 190A-8: 5,5 MW
Me 109K-4: 5,5 MW
Beaufighter Mk 21: 5,3 MW
...
P-47D: 2,3 MW
P-38: 2,2 MW
It not the number of projectiles that makes a battery destructive, it is (unsurprisingly) the destructiveness of the projectiles that makes a battery destructive.
I like your style, really. But I have to say that I know far more about guns than I do about aircraft, and I know that with a multitude of impacts each successive one is more damaging than the first, especially when hitting in rapid succession and creating a "stacking" effect of energy transfer. How many hits you can make is very important to how destructive any weapon is.Hi Hardwarefreak,
>>And I don't consider a new account created exclusively for participating in a controversial thread a good basis to ask such question ...
>That is a ginormous, and incorrect, assumption to make.
5 posts in total, all in this thread, account created well after this discussion started, claiming to have read all of the thread ... that's the data I have on you.
And you accused me of trolling in your post #4 ... how about an apology now that I have corrected your misunderstanding?
I might be guilty of using a less than perfect formulation, but I can hardly think of a more offensive way of asking for clarification than the one you chose.
>This is what I was referring to, from #307:
Your misunderstanding again - Watt is power, not weight.
>All I'm saying is that you contradicted yourself.
Your personal misunderstanding contradicted what seems to be an otherwise OK understanding of my posts ... you should have realized that after I posted my clarification.
Kind regards,
Henning (HoHun)