Best Nightfighter of WW2 (Continued)

[KraziKanuK]

P-61B-15 42-39606 'Li'l Abner' 415th NFS St Dizier France Mar 45
P-61B-15 42-39672 'Little Audrey' 422nd NFS Etain France late 44

Erich said the 414th NF S not the 414th NF G

 

[Anonymous]

No turbochargers, and the props both turned the same direction - the British didn't want to maintain two parts sets.

Otherwise, the P-38D and E were quite good for their time.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

P-61B-15 42-39606 'Li'l Abner' 415th NFS St Dizier France Mar 45
P-61B-15 42-39672 'Little Audrey' 422nd NFS Etain France late 44

Erich said the 414th NF S not the 414th NF G

If that is Little Audrey's serial, they she would have been a B. That would be ONE in the group. However, this does not fit with unit diaries, which indicate only the older version SCR-720 radar was available for night interdiction missions as late as March 1945.

Midnight Menace is clearly an A model.

My original point remains howerver, which is that the P-61(B) was a very capable night fighter. Certainly as capable as the Ju88G-6. It had superior armament, armor, handling, and radar to the Ju88, and equal speed.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

a couple of things if I may. go back to the link you provided for the listing of most of the 425th's P-61's. there were others. now type in the 414 and then 422 and see what you come up with.........surprise, B's

the last pic you posted has the extended radom of the B series. Again I am not really fond of continuing threads with you under the assumption you have provided net resources without personal vet interviews that I have done over a great many years nor documentation such as founding books that have been around for sometime stating B versions wre used in 44-45 in the ETO with the 3 squadrons later Med units that switched over from the Mossie to the P-61B. I can share that the vets memories have laxed some the last 60 years but in this case knowing and interviewing pilots and especially the CO of the 425th nfs that there wereno B varinat in the 425th rises up a red flag in my thinking. Are you saying that "Gilly" then is full of crock ?

if I am way too serious someone stop me ...........

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

no you tell 'im erich........

 

[Anonymous]

No Erich,

Older vets are often incorrect about the details, it is not a matter of them lying, just that they confuse dates frequently.

Anyway, I'll look up some other units soon. But it appears that many of these units, or the pilots within them, were transfered to the PTO immeadiatly after the War in Europe was finished.

Perhaps they did have some B's in the ETO, but it appears if they did it was not until 1945, and that these were not used as night fighters but as night interdition planes.

So just to be clear, you are claiming that the P-61B was a poor night fighter? Not as good as the Ju88G-6?? I would be curious, might you forward your comment that the P-61 was a dog, the Ju88G-6 ruled to one of these pilots you've interviewed and let us see their response?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

funny your last line is exactly what I did to Gilly. so Gilly what I hear you say is that you thought the P-61 did a fair job but was not the answer to the night interception problem over the Reich. he agreed. What did he think of the Ju 88G-6 and the possible threat of the Me 262 single engine nf. He did not enough info on the Ju 88 to tell as he did not face them but he did on the Fw 190F and G as well as the slow Stuka. He was quite impressed with the Ju 87D's slowness and ease to which it could bank and be lost in the ground haze where the P-61 (B) could not follow.
As to comment to the Me 262 he always hoped he would never have one in the area............think you know what the outcome would have been.
the start of the B varinat of the P-61 came in the heavy fighting in the Ardenne as the A's were being run into the ground some A's flown by three different crews on nights over Belgium.

Jack Slayton combats were with Bf 110G's in which he shot down 1 and agasint Ju 52's and an almost kill against a KG 200 Ju 290 agent dropping but he missed his chance on a night fighters moon...........interesting story.
He also battled or had visuals on Ju 188's which were numerous on the dark nights over the Reich.

Bud Anderson also from the 425th did night ground attack in his B but did not do well with the Widow on night intruder ops. he was shot down by German 2cm ground weapons and severly injured.

Bob Bolinder who was with the 414th flew both A's and B's scoring a couple of German bombers. He never flew agaisnt Ju 88G-6's as he was moved out of the 422nd line-up as additional personell and moved back to the Med with his unit. the man would have taken anything on he told me in the Widow because "that is what we had"

vet memories in this case are not as faulty as you might think. In my regard I find the Widow the better night ground attack a/c compared to the Ju 88G-6. True the Widow was equipped with AI right at the start the Ju 88G-6 not seeing Berlin sets till spring of 45. would have to compare the quality of the a/c crews but this would not be overally fair as the Germans had the most experience.

 

[MP-Willow]

Erich and RG:
Thanks for the P-61 talk. This plane came late and I think could have preformed well if given the same oprotuities as the others.

But I would like to say that even in the PTO the P-61 never used the 4x0.50s in the turret as a turret mount. It was found the airflow over the guns would be very difficult to controll so it would be locked down. The guner could then be removed and replaced with more fuel or ammo. I think if the problum would have been fixed that would have helped to make the P-61Cs even better. But they were to late in getting out.

Over all I think the USAAC crews were lacking in operational hours that the RAF and Germans had.

 

[Anonymous]

funny your last line is exactly what I did to Gilly. so Gilly what I hear you say is that you thought the P-61 did a fair job but was not the answer to the night interception problem over the Reich. he agreed. What did he think of the Ju 88G-6 and the possible threat of the Me 262 single engine nf. He did not enough info on the Ju 88 to tell as he did not face them but he did on the Fw 190F and G as well as the slow Stuka. He was quite impressed with the Ju 87D's slowness and ease to which it could bank and be lost in the ground haze where the P-61 (B) could not follow.
As to comment to the Me 262 he always hoped he would never have one in the area............think you know what the outcome would have been.
the start of the B varinat of the P-61 came in the heavy fighting in the Ardenne as the A's were being run into the ground some A's flown by three different crews on nights over Belgium.

Jack Slayton combats were with Bf 110G's in which he shot down 1 and agasint Ju 52's and an almost kill against a KG 200 Ju 290 agent dropping but he missed his chance on a night fighters moon...........interesting story.
He also battled or had visuals on Ju 188's which were numerous on the dark nights over the Reich.

Bud Anderson also from the 425th did night ground attack in his B but did not do well with the Widow on night intruder ops. he was shot down by German 2cm ground weapons and severly injured.

Bob Bolinder who was with the 414th flew both A's and B's scoring a couple of German bombers. He never flew agaisnt Ju 88G-6's as he was moved out of the 422nd line-up as additional personell and moved back to the Med with his unit. the man would have taken anything on he told me in the Widow because "that is what we had"

vet memories in this case are not as faulty as you might think. In my regard I find the Widow the better night ground attack a/c compared to the Ju 88G-6. True the Widow was equipped with AI right at the start the Ju 88G-6 not seeing Berlin sets till spring of 45. would have to compare the quality of the a/c crews but this would not be overally fair as the Germans had the most experience.

Well, I will have to research the other units, but as I've shown, only five of the 425ths 36 P-61's might have been B's, only one is confirmed as such. The B's SCR-720C radar was a significant improvement over the A's SCR-720.

Comparing the radar units on the two planes.... there is little comparison....

The Ju88G-6 had the Lichtenstein SN-2 radar, a 91 Mhz four meter unit with a maxium range of about 3 miles and a minimum range of about 500 meters (very late models had a frequency switch to allow shorter range function). It has some very limited ability to see through "window". This unit caused about a 50 kph reduction in speed - I doubt this reduction is reflected in the Ju88G-6 speed listed. The radar unit functioned in a fairly tight cone toward the front of the plane only.

The P-61A had a SCR-720 radar, a 3 Ghz 9.1 cm unit with 5 selectable range settings from 2 to 100 miles (10 miles was the practical limit for night fighter ops, with 6.5 miles being more realistic). There was no meaningful minimum range. The P-61B's SCR-720C radar was "much improved" but I've not been able to find out much details about the improvements. Ground clutter was not a big problem with either of these units and they were almost impervious to "window" and other jamming techniques. The radar dish rotated at 320 rpm could provided a very wide angle view when scanning, and then be focused in once a target was aquired.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

Erich and RG:
Thanks for the P-61 talk. This plane came late and I think could have preformed well if given the same oprotuities as the others.

But I would like to say that even in the PTO the P-61 never used the 4x0.50s in the turret as a turret mount. It was found the airflow over the guns would be very difficult to controll so it would be locked down. The guner could then be removed and replaced with more fuel or ammo. I think if the problum would have been fixed that would have helped to make the P-61Cs even better. But they were to late in getting out.

Over all I think the USAAC crews were lacking in operational hours that the RAF and Germans had.

The P-61A entered the war in mid 1944 in both the ETO/MTO and the PTO. It had minimal impact as a nightfighter in the ETO/MTO, mostly because it wasn't really used as a nightfighter much in that theater. In the PTO, it had some reasonable success.

With the P-61B, the turret problems were largely solved and they were used to train and fire on targets.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

RG according to vets I have interviewed they did have problems in 1945 with ground clutter. the 422nd and the 425th esepcially s you said did a dual purpose. One of hunting German bombers/fighters the other to clobber German ground positions. the AI was used for both and it is reported to me several times that when pursueing Ju 87D's and even Ju 188's if the a/c dove in a hard flick of the wing bank to the ground the German craft was lost.....this was the only thing said the the Widow crew returned to base to re-arm, fuel and possibly change the crew.

the Ju 88G-6 with Berlin AI was not jammed neither the coder within the craft. True I will agree the earlier forms of SN-d sets were nothing like the US or RAF AI sets during 1944.

 

[Gemhorse]

For myself, I can't see why they even bought the P-61 into the ETO, as the British were doing the 'Night Shift', and the Mosquito was handling the Nightfighter situation really well.....Our crews were well-trained and integrated to this role, the aircraft were excellent for the role, the Mk.VIII radar was by then a good purposeful system, there was no extra need of an additional Allied NF....It wasn't necessarily how fast they could be, or as mentioned how many guns, the Mossies 4x 20mm's were just right, and having such a manoevurable aircraft that could SLOW to the potential victim's speed was the necessity...to stalk, identify, then terminate...
Speed was important, yes, the Ju-88's in particular could hare-off if warned of impending attack and could prove to be quite elusive, but when Bf-262's entered the fray, the Mossies could in turn be elusive...I haven't the figures but most Mossies shot down were more likely Bomber/Pathfinder variants without rearward-warning radar....There's no-way a P-61 compares favourably to the Mosquito as a NF.....they were of more use in the PTO as 'Bed-check Charlie' chasers.....

 

[Anonymous]

RG according to vets I have interviewed they did have problems in 1945 with ground clutter. the 422nd and the 425th esepcially s you said did a dual purpose. One of hunting German bombers/fighters the other to clobber German ground positions. the AI was used for both and it is reported to me several times that when pursueing Ju 87D's and even Ju 188's if the a/c dove in a hard flick of the wing bank to the ground the German craft was lost.....this was the only thing said the the Widow crew returned to base to re-arm, fuel and possibly change the crew.

the Ju 88G-6 with Berlin AI was not jammed neither the coder within the craft. True I will agree the earlier forms of SN-d sets were nothing like the US or RAF AI sets during 1944.

Again, that is probably the SCR-720 radar set, not the SCR-720C which was improved for downward operation.

Was Berlin even used? What I've read is that only experimental prototypes were tested in May 1945. Power output was low and thus range and resolution were limited. Lack of powerful magnets was a big problem for German night fighter radar designs.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

For myself, I can't see why they even bought the P-61 into the ETO, as the British were doing the 'Night Shift', and the Mosquito was handling the Nightfighter situation really well.....Our crews were well-trained and integrated to this role, the aircraft were excellent for the role, the Mk.VIII radar was by then a good purposeful system, there was no extra need of an additional Allied NF....It wasn't necessarily how fast they could be, or as mentioned how many guns, the Mossies 4x 20mm's were just right, and having such a manoevurable aircraft that could SLOW to the potential victim's speed was the necessity...to stalk, identify, then terminate...
Speed was important, yes, the Ju-88's in particular could hare-off if warned of impending attack and could prove to be quite elusive, but when Bf-262's entered the fray, the Mossies could in turn be elusive...I haven't the figures but most Mossies shot down were more likely Bomber/Pathfinder variants without rearward-warning radar....There's no-way a P-61 compares favourably to the Mosquito as a NF.....they were of more use in the PTO as 'Bed-check Charlie' chasers.....

The P-61 was the USA's night fighter. I agree the Mossie was doing a good job, but it really started to shine as a night fighter when it got the AI Mk X radar, which was what the British called the SCR-720. Because of development and crew training issues, the P-61's were late getting into the action and thus SCR-720's were available for the British, who put them to very good use!

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Gemhorse]

Yeah, in my reading years ago, things really improved with the advent of the A1 Mk.VIII, but you are correct, the Mk.X was an even more substantial improvement.....I read about the RAF Nightfighters quite some years ago, and generally run on memory there !!.......
I do believe the P-61 was a good aircraft, no doubt about that, just like some, it needed to be 'honed' to it's task and that takes time......

Gemhorse

 

[Erich]

not to be too off topic but yes we will cover the Mossie ops in our book versus the Me 262.

Yes the Berlin 240A1 was used successfully on missions. It is hardly covered as it is used so terribly late in the war. Tested by crews in NJG 1 that did have the Ju 88G-6 on hand namely 9./NJG 1. NJG 4 especially and some craft fitted in NJG 5 with I. gruppe.

Again as I have said and RG just mentioned the P-61 was Americas bird for nightnfighting and no-one was going to take it out of the hands of the US crews. The US crews not so fortunate to have the Widow desperately asked, screamed , cursed whate have you for the a/c to be on their doorsteps and even by March 45 with several ETO-Med squadrons receiving them in the closing weeks the unit was never carried into operations but then remained as an all weather recon a/c after wars end

 

[Anonymous]

not to be too off topic but yes we will cover the Mossie ops in our book versus the Me 262.

Yes the Berlin 240A1 was used successfully on missions. It is hardly covered as it is used so terribly late in the war. Tested by crews in NJG 1 that did have the Ju 88G-6 on hand namely 9./NJG 1. NJG 4 especially and some craft fitted in NJG 5 with I. gruppe.

It appears production of the Berlin radar unit was extremely limited, as working units relied on captured British cavity magnetrons, though a german copy of the magintron was also quickly produced, with questionable functionality. How would you would make a decent cavity magnetron using iron magnets?

About 30-50 units were delivered by years end, of which apparently only about 10 made it into the Ju88. Some were also fitted into Me262 nightfighters, but none of these saw combat service.

Maybe you have more details on the deployment of Berlin radar units and how they were constructed?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[MP-Willow]

RG- thaks for the corection. I miss read, thought the probums with the P-61 turret were corected with the C, and not the B.

Question, if the RAF used the SCR-720, sets so well, why were they a problum with the P-61? Was it just crew training? I think i would have to agree that the P-61 might not have needed to be sent to the ETO, save to give the USAAC it's own aircraft and NF crews

 

[Anonymous]

The SCR-720 were not a problem for P-61A crews, they were just not as good as the SCR-720(C) sets that came out in the P-61B. The C sets were less bothered by ground clutter, and more able to see through window and other jamming technologies.

As for the British - well they were the Allied night fighting experts. Experiance is always a very significant factor. They also got the SCR-720 into action earlier than the P-61A's (in any significant quantities), so they faced earlier countermeasures. My guess is they also got upgraded to the C series sets later in the war. And they did a lot more night-interception as opposed to night interdiction type missions than the P-61's.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[MP-Willow]

Thanks.