Best Pacific Fighter?

[acesman]

Quote:

Since the P-38 shot down more Japanese aircraft than any other plane

Sez Who? And how many was that?

Don't know how many, the stat is according to the US Army Air Corps (USAAC) and US Department of Defense records. This is not surprising since the Lightning was one of the main (and often THE main) USAAC fighters for three+ years in the Pacific Theater.

 

[acesman]

The P-38 could actually hold its own in a turning fight with a Zero. It has been reported than Bong turned inside Zeros at fairly low speeds.

Perhaps. And later models of the Zero and Lightning may have performed differently that early models. Supposedly the early Lightnings would use more of a "boom and zoom" technique. But Bong was also an exceptional pilot, and that could make a difference.

 

[R Leonard]

Don't know how many, the stat is according to the US Army Air Corps (USAAC) and US Department of Defense records. This is not surprising since the Lightning was one of the main (and often THE main) USAAC fighters for three+ years in the Pacific Theater.

To which USAAF records do you refer?

And since there was no DoD at the time, I presume you mean the War Department. To which War Department or, if you wish, even DoD, records do you refer?

Regards,

Rich

 

[Anonymous]

I believe the Hellcat was the #1 killer of Japanese planes.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[R Leonard]

I believe the Hellcat was the #1 killer of Japanese planes.

That is certainly my impression.

1st Place: F6F with 5163 (just bombers and fighters)
2d Place: F4U with 2138 (just bombers and fighters)
3d Place: P-38 with 1700 (all types)

And USAAF in the Pacific (Cental, Southwest, and Aleutians) recorded some 3715 credited victories. The F6F beat that all by itself.

Rich

 

[cheddar cheese]

Ive never read anything other than that the P-38 scored the most against the Japanese. Where'd you get that information?

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

no all information you have posted has the P-38 down for the most jap planes CLAIMED..........

 

[KraziKanuK]

Ive never read anything other than that the P-38 scored the most against the Japanese. Where'd you get that information?

That is because you missed the part that said 'USAAF'.

 

[acesman]

1st Place: F6F with 5163 (just bombers and fighters)
2d Place: F4U with 2138 (just bombers and fighters)
3d Place: P-38 with 1700 (all types)

And USAAF in the Pacific (Cental, Southwest, and Aleutians) recorded some 3715 credited victories. The F6F beat that all by itself.

 

[acesman]

1st Place: F6F with 5163 (just bombers and fighters)
2d Place: F4U with 2138 (just bombers and fighters)
3d Place: P-38 with 1700 (all types)

And USAAF in the Pacific (Cental, Southwest, and Aleutians) recorded some 3715 credited victories. The F6F beat that all by itself.

Could you please cite your source? If possible give a URL

 

[cheddar cheese]

Ive never read anything other than that the P-38 scored the most against the Japanese. Where'd you get that information?

That is because you missed the part that said 'USAAF'.

That is most likely.

 

[acesman]

I will quote wmaxt from the "p51 vs p47" poll

In the MTO and the Pacific The P-38 was the best. Historians credit it with 5,730+ in the PTO and 608 in the MTO ( included in the 2,500). Considering they did this while doing Close escort, ground attack and more experienced adversaries And less aircraft 10,000 P-38s (8,200+ kills total for the war) to 15,000+ p-51s (5,932 kills for the war) and 16,000 P-47s (7,000+ kills for the war) is even more remarkable.

R Leonard said

1st Place: F6F with 5163 (just bombers and fighters)
2d Place: F4U with 2138 (just bombers and fighters)
3d Place: P-38 with 1700 (all types)

And USAAF in the Pacific (Cental, Southwest, and Aleutians) recorded some 3715 credited victories. The F6F beat that all by itself.

There seems to be considerable differences in the numbers, and by the first quote, the F6F/F4U combined comes in second place. I have not been able to to attribute any of the above numbers, but what I have found is that one fighter group, the 475th (top scoring Group in the war), accounted for over 550 enemy planes. This would seem to raise doubt about your number of 1700, since there were many fighter groups using P-38's during the Pacific War.

BTW, what is the Southwest Pacific? I have heard South Pacific used often, but I do not recall hearing Southwest Pacific except to refer to Australia/Nwe Zealand

 

[cheddar cheese]

Good points acesman. Those are similar statistics to what I have read.

 

[acesman]

http://usfighter.tripod.com/

The site listed above has some stats about many of the US fighters in this poll. According to them, and their quoted sources, the Hellcat racked up 5,156 kills and a very impressive 19:1 kill ratio. This is all F6F's, Navy, Marine and Land Based(?). They are credited (by the Navy) with nearly 80% of all enemy planes shot down by friendly aircraft.

The P-38 is also mentioned, as credited with the most Japanese planes killed, although numbers were not given on that page.

There have always been differences in the numbers, and to add to the mix, late in the War in the Pacific, credit was given for enemy aircraft on the GROUND! I believe the pure numbers are not as relevant as the longevity, total contribution and adaptability of an airframe. I have no problem with saying that the P-38 is the finest Army fighter, and the F6F was the finest Navy fighter, over the course of the Pacific War (1941-1945)

 

[acesman]

Clarification of previous post; the Hellcat is credited with nearly 80% of Navy/Marine air-to-air kills.[/u]

 

[R Leonard]

Yeah, but maybe you should read that whole thread, as that line of claim, IMHO thoroughly debunked.

I defy you to find an official USAF source, on or off the internet, that quotes the 5730+ number for the P-38. What you're reading is shear aficionado BS.

I am still waiting for you to produce an official source.

My numbers come from official USAAF and USN sources. Let's see you do that.

You show me yours and I'll show you mine, afterall, I asked first.

Oh, and contrary to your belief, aircraft destroyed on the ground were not counted as air to air victories. Did they keep track of planes destroyed on the ground? Oh sure, but as an order of battle intelligence exercise. Never were they added to some pilot's official score. You have been misinformed. Or perhaps you have an official source for that claim as well?

And you might want to read up on your WWII history. You just might discover that the Southwest Pacific Theater was that under the command of General MacArthur.


Regards,

Rich

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, they did give credit for ground kills through the 2nd half of the war, to encourage pilots to go down and strafe them.

Then, after the war, they changed their minds and these kills were not credited.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[R Leonard]

Not in the Navy. And I can't find anything that indicates the Army did, either. As far as I know the only folks who got credit for ground kills were the AVG. Do you have an official source for that? I'd be interesting in seeing it.

Regards,

Rich

 

[Anonymous]

Not in the Navy. And I can't find anything that indicates the Army did, either. As far as I know the only folks who got credit for ground kills were the AVG. Do you have an official source for that? I'd be interesting in seeing it.

Regards,

Rich

I don't think there is an official source, it was never actually "official". What I remember is they were told ground kills would count - but then they wern't. This may only have been for the USAAF in Europe, I'm not sure.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[R Leonard]

There seems to be considerable differences in the numbers, and by the first quote, the F6F/F4U combined comes in second place. I have not been able to to attribute any of the above numbers, but what I have found is that one fighter group, the 475th (top scoring Group in the war), accounted for over 550 enemy planes. This would seem to raise doubt about your number of 1700, since there were many fighter groups using P-38's during the Pacific War

.

475 Fighter Group was indeed a high scoring FG, but I sure wouldn't go extrapolating the performance of all fighter groups based on a single example. That's not a very good statistical analysis practice or technique. 475 FG consisted of 431, 432, and 433 Fighter Squadrons. Their records can be located in the National Archives on microfilms A0807 and A0808. Reports consist of M1065/3 - 0703 to end; M1065/4 - 0005 to 0631; M1065/8 - 0070 to 0591; and M1065/9 - 0005 to 0760. Squadron records indicate:
431st Fighter Squadron: 221 confirmed / 14 probable / 7.5 damaged
432nd Fighter Squadron: 167 / 21 / 14
433rd Fighter Squadron: 121 / 23 / 12
Totals: 509 / 38 / 33.5

Well, let's see . . .
VF-2 in two deployments, 11/43 to 1/44 aboard CV-6 and 3/44 to 9/44 aboard CV-12, results were 246 / 34 / 2. That's as good as any of the 475 FG squadrons. VF-9's final roll-up count was 256.75 / 31 / 55. Do I need to go on? Okay, there were 24 USN fighter squadrons with more than 100 confirmed credits, most of which, BTW, were F6F squadrons (VBF-1, VF-2, VF-3, VF-5, VF-6, VF-8, VF-9, VF-10, VF-11, VF-14, VF-15, VF-16, VBF-17, VF-17, VF-18, VF-19, VF-20, VF-21, VF-27, VF-29, VF-30, VF-31, VF-80 and VF-83. Five squadrons posted more than 200 victories: VF-10 (217 / 23.5 / 26); VF-18 (250.5 / 33 / 16); VF-9 (256.75 / 31 / 55); VF-15 (310 / 34 / 28.5) and VF-17 (313 / 48 / 48).

Comparatively, there were 13 USAAF squadrons in the Pacific that scored in excess of 100 aerial credits (7 FS, 8 FS, 9 FS, 35 FS, 39 FS, 40 FS, 44 FS, 80 FS, 339 FS, 342 FS, 431 FS, 432 FS, and 433 FS. Four FS achieved more that 200 victory credits: 8 FS (207 / 23 / 17); 80 FS (213 / 57 / 11); 431 FS (above); and 9 FS (254 / 63 / 20).

The breakdown of aerial victories in the Pacific by USAAF aircraft type goes something like:
P-38 = 1,700
P-47 = 697
P-40 = 661
P-51/F-6 = 297
P-39/P-400 = 288
P-61 = 64
P-36 = 3
P-70 = 2
P-26 = 2
P-35 = 1
Total = 3,715

That's it, that's all, there weren't any more, no 5730 shootdowns by P-38's, not even 5730 total shootdowns. All derived from from USAAF records. Not some aficionado's website. Believe what you wish, but the truth shall set you free.

Show me an official USAF source that says different.

Regards,

Rich