best twin/triple engined bomber at outbreak world war II

Hi
in http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...your-operational-airforce-look-like-2288.html
i want post my dream bombers but i try difficult tell what's the best twin/triple engined bomber at time, and more difficul is the best exported.
so i thinked see what think the community.
for remember this is a list, maybe incomplete, of twin/triple engined bombers at time, i exclude biplane:

Blenheim IV (and earlier) Max speed 428 km/h, empty weight 4.4 tons max weight 6.6 metric tons, internal bomb load 454 kg, engines power 1840 hp
Hampden I 409 km/h 5.3/8.5 tons 1814 kg 1630 hp
Wellington IA (and earlier) 377 Km/h 8.4/12.7 tons 2041 kg 1630 hp
Whitley IVA (and earlier) 370 Km/h 8.8/15.2 tons 3175 kg 2140 hp (data for V)
Hudson I 396 km/h 5.3/7.9 tons 454 kg 2200 hp
Martin 139WH3a (and earlier) 388 km/h 4.7/? 1025 kg 2000 hp
B 18A (and earlier) 347 km/h 7.4/12.6 tons 1996 kg 2000 hp
Ki 2-II 283 km/h ?/4.7 tons 300 kg 1100 hp
Ki 21-I 432 km/h 4.7/7.9 tons 1000 kg 1700 hp (data for Ia)
G3M2 374 km/h 5/8 tons (only external) 2150 hp (data for model 22)
SB Bis 3 (and earlier) 445 km/h 4.5/7.5 tons 600 kg 1920 hp
DB 3 M 87 engine (and earlier) 439 km/h 5/9.4 tons 1000kg 1900 hp
He 111H2 (and earlier) 405 km/h 7.7/14 tons 2000 kg 2200 hp
Do 23 (and earlier) 260 km/h 5.6/9.2 tons 1000kg 1500 hp
Do 17Z2 (and earlier) 424 km/h 5.2/8.8 tons 1000 kg 2000 hp
Ju 52/3m g3e 277 km/h 5.7/10.5 tons 1500 kg 2175 hp
Ju 86E4 (and earlier) 375 km/h 5.2/8.2 tons 1000 kg 1740 hp
Ju 88A0 450 km/h 7.7/12.5 tons 1400 kg 2420 hp (data for A1)
Amiot 143 295 km/h 5.5/10.4 tons 900 kg 1740 hp
MB 131 385 km/h 6/8.6 tons 800 kg 1740 hp
MB 200 285 km/h 4.5/7.3 tons 1200 kg 1740 hp
MB 210 320 km/h 6.4/10.2 tons 1400 kg 1820 hp
LeO 451 495 km/h 6.4/11.4 tons 1500 kg 2280 hp
Potez 540 320 km/h 3.8/6.9 tons 500 kg 1580 hp
Potez 633 440 km/h 2.9/4.3 tons 400 kg 1340 hp
Ca 135 363 km/h 5.6/8.5 tons 1600 kg 1650 hp
Ca 133 280 km/h 4/6.6 tons 1000 kg 1410 hp
Ba 88 490 km/h 4.6/6.7 tons 1000 kg 2000 hp
S.M. 79 I 430 km/h 6.8/10.5 tons 1250 kg 2370 hp
S.M. 81 336 km/h 6.8/10.5 tons 2000 kg 2340 hp(data for version with alfa 126 engines)
Z. 1007 430 km/h 8.2/12.2 tons 800 kg 2475 hp
B.R. 20 432 km/h 6.4/9.9 tons 1600 kg 2000 hp
PZL 37B (and earlier) 412 km/h 4.9/9.1 2400 kg 1940 hp
T V 417 km/h 4.7/7.2 tons 1000 kg 1850 hp

february 7th i delete from list all aircraft with less 400 kg of bomb load or a speed under 250 km/h

source for data:
british planes: British Aircraft of World War II
american planes: American Military Aircraft
The Glenn L. Martin Maryland Aviation Museum
japanese army planes: Axis History Forum :: Info: Early Japanese Army Air Force Aircraft
japanese navy plane: WWII Imperial Japanese Navy Aircraft
soviet planes: Russian Aviation Museum
old dornier bombers: VAR. Aviation WWII.Bombers
Dornier Do 17: Dornier Do-17 Depot
Junkers Ju 52/3m: WW2 Warbirds: the Junkers Ju 52 Tante Ju - Frans Bonn
Junkers Ju 86:
Encyklopedia broni - Niemcy - samoloty - Junkers Ju 86 : samolot bombowy.
Junker Ju 88A-1
WW2 Warbirds: the Junkers Ju 88 - Frans Bonn
French planes: Aviafrance, un siècle d'aviation française - Les machines
Italian planes: Generale B.A. Enrico Pezzi - Omaggio alla memoria
Z. 1007 I serie: Cant Z.1007 Alcione
P 32 II: Aerei Italiani - Scheda Tecnica - Piaggio P.32 II
SM 81:
Savoia Marchetti S.M.81 -
PZL 37: P.Z.L P.37 Los War and Game
T V: War over Holland - May 1940: the Dutch struggle
G I: Luchtmacht: Fokker G.I (G.1) [De Slag om de Grebbeberg]

Hard to tell for me. It's a long list and there are several very good aircraft to choose from. Must we pick only one?

My favorite 3 are:

LeO 451
He-111
Wellington

I must admit I'm not too familiar with most of those on the bottom part of your list, but if I had to pick only one, I'd go with the Ju-88.

LeO footage:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03Q_Q2DlCc

.

Arsenal VG-33 said:

Hard to tell for me. It's a long list and there are several very good aircraft to choose from. Must we pick only one?

My favorite 3 are:

LeO 451
He-111
Wellington

Click to expand...

The He 111 the Wellington? What about these 2 Arsenal?

I still think its a pity that the RAF FF never really got to use some of the excellent French aircraft in the early war years....

From that list I would select the PZL P.37 Los.

PZL.37 Łoś - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The more advanced PZL.49 Mis had even more potential.

freebird said:

The He 111 the Wellington? What about these 2 Arsenal?

I still think its a pity that the RAF FF never really got to use some of the excellent French aircraft in the early war years....

Click to expand...

freebird,

The MB 174 is an excellent aircraft, but it wasn't on the list. Besides, the MB 174 was a smaller, multi-role plane. Had it abeen a choice of "best multi-role aircraft", I would have picked the 174 at once. I tend to view the Potez 630-633 series aircraft in much the same way.

For some reason, I've always liked the Wellington. Something about it's construction thats very interesting. I don't think it got the credit it deserved during early-war actions.

MB 174 wasn't in the list because wasn't operational in september 1939.
if a plane was operational at time can be choice, also if isn't in the list, i added it.

Well, it looks like I have more homework to do. Besides Wiki, do you know a good site to learn about these other aircraft?

Ju 88 for me....

I think it was the fastest and carried the best bomb load out of all listed.

FLYBOYJ said:

Ju 88 for me....

I think it was the fastest and carried the best bomb load out of all listed.

Click to expand...

Was the LeO 451 not superior in both to the Ju-88? The only advantage that the Ju-88 had was that it was multi-role.

I show the Ju 88 with a top speed of over 300 mph with a 5000 lb bomb load. The LeO 451 seemed to have about the same defensive armament and its max bomb load was about 2000 pounds less - of couse all this depended on range and mission profile.

for true Leo 451 is fastest of Ju 88A1, and for bomb load i'm not sure but maybe best also the He 111H2.

if my info are in right. the fastest in the list are: Leo 451, Ba 88, Fokker G I (maybe not in this order, they are that run over 450 km/h). see the many trouble of Ba 88 and the small bomb load of fokker (and it's the slowest of three), i think that Leo 451 is surely fastest bomber (2/3 engines) in outbreak of WW II.
for usefull load (bomb and fuel) it is more complicated, source discordant, aircraft weights range is large (max from ~4 to ~15 tons, empty from ~2.5 to ~9 tons) maybe usefull divide in light and medium bomber for a comparation.

I show the Ju 88 A1 with a top speed of 510 km/h at 4,750 m (317 mph at 15,600 ft).

what's the source of speed of ju 88a1?
AFAIK the max speed is 450 km/h

Vincenzo said:

what's the source of speed of ju 88a1?
AFAIK the max speed is 450 km/h

Click to expand...

Wiki shows speeds over 450km/h but they may be confusing variants but list sources.

Performance
Maximum speed: 510 km/h at 4,750 m (317 mph at 15,600 ft)
Range: 2,108 km (1,310 mi)
Service ceiling 9,080 m (29,800 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)

Dressel, Joachim and Griehl Manfred. Bombers of the Luftwaffe. London: Arms and Armour (DAG Publications), 1994. ISBN 1-85409-140-9.
Feist, Uwe. Junkers Ju 88 in action. Carrollton,Texas: Squadron/Signal Publications, 1974. ISBN 3-79090-026-5.
Taylor, John W.R. "Junkers Ju 88." Combat Aircraft of the World from 1909 to the present. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1969. ISBN 0-425-03633-2.
Verlag, Kaiser. Die großen Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkriegs: Flugzeuge - Erfolge - Niederlagen (in German). Gebunden, Germany: Neuer Kaiser Vlg GmbH, 1994. ISBN 3-7043-6029-5.
Winchester, Jim. "Junkers Ju 88". Aircraft of World War II. London: Grange Books, 2004. ISBN 1-84013-639-1.


This site shows just under 300 mph

WW2 Warbirds: the Junkers Ju 88 - Frans Bonn

In either case evidence still shows it was faster than the Leo 451

wiki alone is not a source all can write on,
the Bonn site report 450 km/h for A1

The GI was merely a fighterbomber instead of a bomber. The T.V was not very good, being quite slow (430 km/h) and no selfsealing tanks.
The wellington was quite good with a goos range and sturdy, but had lack of defensive armament.
I would go with the J88 or the He111 although the PZL was quite good as well.

One of my reference books, "Rand McNally Encyclopedia of Military aircraft - 1914 to present" shows the LeO.451 superior to the Ju-88A1 in speed, bomb load and range.


Ju-88A1---------LeO.451

Max. speed: 280mph vs. 307mph
Max Bombs: 3,960lbs vs. 4,400lbs
Max range: 1,056 miles vs. 1,430 miles

Arsenal VG-33 said:

One of my reference books, "Rand McNally Encyclopedia of Military aircraft - 1914 to present" shows the LeO.451 superior to the Ju-88A1 in speed, bomb load and range.


Ju-88A1---------LeO.451

Max. speed: 280mph vs. 307mph
Max Bombs: 3,960lbs vs. 4,400lbs
Max range: 1,056 miles vs. 1,430 miles

Click to expand...

Interesting - I wonder if we could find a POH for each aircraft and compare. Outside the "Wiki" reference I show the max speeds on both aircraft varying with bomb load and altitude.
BTW "Wiki" shows the 451 at 300 mph @ 13,255'. It also lists these sources;

Danel, Raymond and Cuny, Jean LeO 45, Amiot 350 et autre B4 Docavia n°23, Editions Larivière
Danel, Raymond and Cuny, Jean L'aviation française de bombardement et de renseignement 1918-1940 Docavia n°12, Editions Larivière
Ehrengardt, Christian-Jacques Le bombardement français, tome I: 1939/1940, Aéro-Journal Hors-Série N°5
Notice descriptive et d'utilisation de l'avion LeO. 451 à moteurs Gnome et Rhône 14N, SNCASE, 1939