Blitzrockie
Airman
- 22
- Jul 19, 2016
F4, F100, F105, Which is the best?
Best wild weasel aircraft in Vietnam?
- Thread starter Blitzrockie
- Start date
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fubar57
General
Didn't know these operated during WW2
EDIT: Now that the thread has been moved to it's rightful place, my comment is now out of order. A mod may remove this post if they wish
EDIT: Now that the thread has been moved to it's rightful place, my comment is now out of order. A mod may remove this post if they wish
Last edited:
soulezoo
Senior Airman
It was the super double secret program by the Allies.
soulezoo
Senior Airman
I'll bite though. Have to go with F-4 since I worked on those and not the others. That's empirical proof right there.
As we used to say about the F-4: It proves that if you put enough engine on a garbage truck, it will fly.
As we used to say about the F-4: It proves that if you put enough engine on a garbage truck, it will fly.
From what I've read the F-4 wasn't that successful as a Wild Weasel during the Vietnam War itself.
They thought their supply of F-105s was getting kind of short, so they converted the F-4 to the task, but then had to go back to F-105s.
They later greatly improve the F-4 WW package, but it was in 74-75, too late to see action in Vietnam, but was very good even up until Desert Storm.
I vote for the F-105.
They thought their supply of F-105s was getting kind of short, so they converted the F-4 to the task, but then had to go back to F-105s.
They later greatly improve the F-4 WW package, but it was in 74-75, too late to see action in Vietnam, but was very good even up until Desert Storm.
I vote for the F-105.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Surprised that the Navy's A-4 isn't mentioned...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Thread moved...
F-4
F-4
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
F-100 started it all, the Thud carried out most of the missions, I don't know if the St. Louis Slugger was as successful as the Thud though, didn't they try it out, but were never really happy with it?
drgondog
Major
Thud. Thud. Did I mention F-105F, then G? First In, Last Out, Sam Baiter, "Big Brass Ones". "Check Your 12" when going downhill out of RP 6.
The 355th went from 5% plus per 100 sorties to 1/2% when the Weasels started 'Weaseling"
R.I.P> Lt Colonel Billy Reid "Sparky" Sparks, 357TFS, Weasel Pioneer, led 1st SAM site (planned) strike in a Weasel,100 Weasel plus 44 1/2 Strike missions where he matched a take off with a safe landing, picked up by a Jolly Green on Red River on his last mission.
Did not suffer fools lightly, one of Robin's best friends, would have made at least three stars on ability and brains - but his nose just couldn't handle the wear and tear expected of it.
One of my very best friends - and I miss him. Bottom pic is Sparky and his Bear Lt.Col "Grouchy Bear" Lombardo
The 355th went from 5% plus per 100 sorties to 1/2% when the Weasels started 'Weaseling"
R.I.P> Lt Colonel Billy Reid "Sparky" Sparks, 357TFS, Weasel Pioneer, led 1st SAM site (planned) strike in a Weasel,100 Weasel plus 44 1/2 Strike missions where he matched a take off with a safe landing, picked up by a Jolly Green on Red River on his last mission.
Did not suffer fools lightly, one of Robin's best friends, would have made at least three stars on ability and brains - but his nose just couldn't handle the wear and tear expected of it.
One of my very best friends - and I miss him. Bottom pic is Sparky and his Bear Lt.Col "Grouchy Bear" Lombardo
Attachments
FIRST: Why is this question on a WWII site?
SECOND: Since you've raised one of my favored topics, I'll violate my notoriously pro-Navy prejudices and toss in my $.02; THUDS RULE!
THIRD: The A-4 wasn't mentioned (and shouldn't be mentioned) as it wasn't a Wild Weasel. W.W. was an Air Force term applied to AF aircraft. The A-4 was one of several Navy aircraft types employed in a predecessor program called "Iron Hand" earlier in the war, usually in a hunter-killer team accompanied by an F-8 or an A-6. As SAM and anti-SAM tactics and technology became more sophisticated, the electronics required began to exceed the capabilities of just about all Navy tactical jets except the A-6. Later, Navy F-4s assumed the role equipped with an add-on electronics pod and Shrike anti-radiation missiles, but like their AF counterparts, their kill/loss ratio was less than encouraging.
FOURTH: The Thud was best because:
1. Built-in rather than pod-hung threat detection and weapons guidance electronics eliminates blind spots and weak lobes due to bank angle, pitch attitude and G-load, thanks to sensors and antennas at all extremities of the airframe.
2. The ability to deliver anti-radiation and other anti-surface weapons, thus combining hunter and killer in one platform. And if all else fails, it has a GUN, and is the fastest guy in the neighborhood down in the weeds!
3. Success record!
SECOND: Since you've raised one of my favored topics, I'll violate my notoriously pro-Navy prejudices and toss in my $.02; THUDS RULE!
THIRD: The A-4 wasn't mentioned (and shouldn't be mentioned) as it wasn't a Wild Weasel. W.W. was an Air Force term applied to AF aircraft. The A-4 was one of several Navy aircraft types employed in a predecessor program called "Iron Hand" earlier in the war, usually in a hunter-killer team accompanied by an F-8 or an A-6. As SAM and anti-SAM tactics and technology became more sophisticated, the electronics required began to exceed the capabilities of just about all Navy tactical jets except the A-6. Later, Navy F-4s assumed the role equipped with an add-on electronics pod and Shrike anti-radiation missiles, but like their AF counterparts, their kill/loss ratio was less than encouraging.
FOURTH: The Thud was best because:
1. Built-in rather than pod-hung threat detection and weapons guidance electronics eliminates blind spots and weak lobes due to bank angle, pitch attitude and G-load, thanks to sensors and antennas at all extremities of the airframe.
2. The ability to deliver anti-radiation and other anti-surface weapons, thus combining hunter and killer in one platform. And if all else fails, it has a GUN, and is the fastest guy in the neighborhood down in the weeds!
3. Success record!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Although a WW2 site, we have a dedicated section to "Other Eras." This thread was actually moved from a WW2 section to post war discussion.
Thanks, man! I asked for it, I got it! This site rocks.
Now they do. Most of their front line tactical aircraft have all the threat detection and identification equipment they would need and can carry the necessary counter weapons, making the "Weasel" function organic to any strike package.
Back in the day the NVAF was essentially a small point-defense interceptor force. They had practically no offensive capability, thus no need for SAM suppression.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Some interesting perspective on how the F-104 was used to support Wild Weasel missions:
Vietnam - International F-104 Society
Vietnam - International F-104 Society
soulezoo
Senior Airman
That was very informative. Thanks for posting that.
Token
Senior Airman
Didn't we just have this question respawn in the "Modern" forum?
I'll post pretty much what I said in that thread, without a doubt the F-4C Wild Weasel was the best in SEA. Yeah, sure, when I think "Wild Weasel" and "Vietnam" I think of the F-105, however that is just because it flew by far the most sorties. The F-4C Weasel arrived late to the conflict, but still participated in significant numbers.
The F-100 was the first of the breed (for the Air Force, but then the effort was not called "Wild Weasel" by the Navy), literally the prototype and forced into service as quickly as possible. The SA2 was causing something of a stir in the community (I am not that old, I did not work in EW until later, but I later worked with a lot of the folks involved from those days). Losses were high and the platforms were not capable of dealing with the SAM threat well. This caused several emergency actions in the States, including the establishment of several test facilities and the birth of the Wild Weasel concept. Probably should say "rebirth" of the Wild Weasel, since this was a logical progression from the Ferret flights of WW II.
Things moved so fast that there was no time to go through the regular contract vehicles, and the contract and specifications for delivery of the first systems used in the F-100F was written on a chalk board, everyone signed the board, and a picture of the board became the contract.
The systems were developed on the fly, installed in the F-100F, proven to sort of work, and were in the skies of SEA in a few short months. Initially they worked only against the then used version of the Fan Song, and had to be modified to work against other versions of the Fan Song, and the Flap Wheel, Fire Can, and Gun Dish.
But one of the problems was that the F-100 could keep up with the Thuds they accompanied while the Thuds were carrying ordinance, but once the Thuds dropped their loads the F-100 struggled, and the F-105s left them behind. So moving to the F-105 platform was not a huge leap in thought. The 105F and then the 105G became the workhorse of the Weasel program, with system advancement coming steadily. The stories of pilots flying this mission out of Korat and Takhli are legend in the community.
But then came the F-4C, and it benefited from not only a more modern platform, but also all of the ESM/EW system development that had already happened. It was the most capable Wild Weasel of the conflict.
I had no personal involvement with the Weasel program until the F-4G, prior to that I worked other aspects of EW.
Yes, the Navy did SEAD in Vietnam also. And among Navy aircraft the A-6 combined with the EA6A and later EA6B was the killer combination.
T!
I'll post pretty much what I said in that thread, without a doubt the F-4C Wild Weasel was the best in SEA. Yeah, sure, when I think "Wild Weasel" and "Vietnam" I think of the F-105, however that is just because it flew by far the most sorties. The F-4C Weasel arrived late to the conflict, but still participated in significant numbers.
The F-100 was the first of the breed (for the Air Force, but then the effort was not called "Wild Weasel" by the Navy), literally the prototype and forced into service as quickly as possible. The SA2 was causing something of a stir in the community (I am not that old, I did not work in EW until later, but I later worked with a lot of the folks involved from those days). Losses were high and the platforms were not capable of dealing with the SAM threat well. This caused several emergency actions in the States, including the establishment of several test facilities and the birth of the Wild Weasel concept. Probably should say "rebirth" of the Wild Weasel, since this was a logical progression from the Ferret flights of WW II.
Things moved so fast that there was no time to go through the regular contract vehicles, and the contract and specifications for delivery of the first systems used in the F-100F was written on a chalk board, everyone signed the board, and a picture of the board became the contract.
The systems were developed on the fly, installed in the F-100F, proven to sort of work, and were in the skies of SEA in a few short months. Initially they worked only against the then used version of the Fan Song, and had to be modified to work against other versions of the Fan Song, and the Flap Wheel, Fire Can, and Gun Dish.
But one of the problems was that the F-100 could keep up with the Thuds they accompanied while the Thuds were carrying ordinance, but once the Thuds dropped their loads the F-100 struggled, and the F-105s left them behind. So moving to the F-105 platform was not a huge leap in thought. The 105F and then the 105G became the workhorse of the Weasel program, with system advancement coming steadily. The stories of pilots flying this mission out of Korat and Takhli are legend in the community.
But then came the F-4C, and it benefited from not only a more modern platform, but also all of the ESM/EW system development that had already happened. It was the most capable Wild Weasel of the conflict.
I had no personal involvement with the Weasel program until the F-4G, prior to that I worked other aspects of EW.
Yes, the Navy did SEAD in Vietnam also. And among Navy aircraft the A-6 combined with the EA6A and later EA6B was the killer combination.
T!
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