Bf 110 Fans - HELP NEEDED for Paint Scheme

Discussion in 'Start to Finish Builds' started by Crimea_River, Oct 31, 2009.

  1. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    I have a partially finished Eduard Bf-110 on the go on a separate thread. So far I've kept the assembly generic until I picked a scheme. The model is a C version but contains parts for an E. Some parts, like the tires/wheels are actually just for the E but a several other lot of the E parts are missing.

    I've settled on a winter Wespe scheme and, as always, want to be authentic as possible. I have used Vasco's "Sting of the Luftwaffe" and "Bf 110 C,D,E and Illustrated Study", both excellent references (Thank-you John!). I also have a couple of volumes on the 110 from Kagero but have doubts on the accuracy of their photo references and profiles.

    I've narrowed my search down to trying to replicate the machine in the photo below, which I found on one of the MTO Group Build threads. Unfortunately, I don't see this machine in any of my Vasco references I have but I do have it in one of my Kagero publications (shown below also) but I think there are inconsistencies in what they say about this plane. So with the wealth of knowledge in this community, I'm hoping I can get some answers to the following questions! Here goes:

    1) Kagero's caption for this machine says it's a Bf 110 E-1. I think it's a C-2 or w-4 based on these observations:
    - There's no small air intake on the nose, charateristic of E's
    - No armour plate behind the pilot introduced with the E
    - No bomb racks under the wings (so it's likely not a C-7 either)
    - Small air scoop in front of the exhausts and single aerial wire preclude this being a C-1
    Anyone see any fault with my logic?

    2) Kagero caption states the machine to be from II/SKG 210 in the winter of 41/42 although there is no squadron code in the photo, just the individual aircraft designation. Does anyone have any more particular info as to which staffel it belonged? Any info on who the pilot was?

    3) I'd agree with the thought that the "S" is probably white (much lighter than the yellow theatre band) so maybe it belongs to 4th staffel if it is indeed from II Gruppe. Valid assumption?

    4) Was the spinner white/yellow/black like Kagero says? Photo appears to verify this.

    5) There's a dark horizontal strip above the swastika on the tail. Is this a Werke Nr or kill marks? The Kagero profile doesn't show it.

    6) It doesn't look like the "S" shows up under the wings within the yellow theater markings. Anyone know if true?

    7) If it's a C model like I think, then I'd be inclined to make the base colours 71/02/65 with the winter white over it. Is it possible it carried 74/75/76? I think the switchover to the latter was during the summer of 1940 on production aircraft (ref Luftwaffe Colours by Ullmann) but I think the C's would have been replaced on the lines by D's and E's by then. Thoughts?

    Thanks for your help everyone.
     

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  2. Maximowitz

    Maximowitz Active Member

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    You called? :D

    I shall alert Mr Vasco to this thread, I'm sure he could help you.
     
  3. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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  4. John Vasco

    John Vasco Member

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    Right, let's have a shot at this, then.

    First of all, do NOT rely on Kagero for accuracy of captions. Quite a few of theirs on the Bf 110 are wrong.

    All you say in 1) I agree with, and I think this is almost certainly a C-4.

    Regarding 2) I have read somewhere that this machine was coded S9+SM. So, 4./ZG 1 is most likely the correct unit.

    Regarding 3) I think the 'S' is white.

    Regarding 4) I would have gone for white 70/71. I don't know of any particular II./ZG 1 Bf 110s having a large amount of yellow on the spinners, apart from 6./ZG 1 having logical yellow spinner tips.

    Regarding 5) Difficult to tell what is at the top of the fin, but my experience of seeing a lot of ZG 1 photos suggests that the W. Nr. was always on the fuselage side. So I think on balance what you see on the top of the fin are victory bars.

    Regarding 6) Unless one sees the undersurfaces properly, it is impossible to tell.

    Regarding 7) If you look at page 8 of the 'Profiles' book from Schiffer by Fernando and I (but I'm not sure whether you have this one or not), you'll see that Fernando indicates that it was in the summer of 1941 that the 74/75/76 camouflage first began to appear, with the directive coming out in November 1941. As to what the colours are on 'S', very difficult to tell. It would be wrong of me to say it was 'such-and-such'.

    Sorry I can't be of more help with this matter.

    John Vasco
     
  5. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I can't help with your 110 questions but can confirm that the above is absolutely correct for Messerschmitts. Messerschmitt appear to have started applying this scheme unilaterally months ahead of the official directive.
    Steve
     
  6. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    John, thanks so much for your input. The Kagero publication disappointed me greatly, with many of the photo captions contradicting the descriptions of the progressive changes between the subvariants. It was the first, and will be the last of its kind I will buy. Your C,D,E Illustrated Study is an excellent reference and led me to most of the above conclusions. Unfortunatley, I don't have the other reference you mentioned

    Steve, thanks also to you. If Messerschmitt started using the 74/75/76 scheme in the summer of 41, do you think they would have overpainted previous factory schemes? Unless I'm wrong, production of the D and E variants started replacing the C's in 1940. So wouldn't factory application for the C's have been 70/71 or maybe 02/71? I know there was experimentation with grey schemes during the Battle of Britain, so maybe it's possible they painted the 110 C's with 74/75 in the field. Any more thoughts on this? Will look on the camo threads some more.

    So,

    1) We've established it's a C-4. That's good to know because it gets me moving on modifying the erroneous tires supplied with the kit. They have the larger hubs associated with the E. The cockpit is also for the C version and is finished already.
    2) Going with 4/SKG II. Pilot unknown as yet.
    3) White S it is. This would be consistent with 4 staffel. I'll make this decal myself.
    4) Going with John on this. White tips, 71 middle, and 70 at rear.
    5) Not sure what I'll do with this strip yet.
    6) Jury is still out on the S underneath.
    7) Jury is still out on the base scheme.

    Thanks again all.

    Andy
     
  7. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Andy,I don't know enough about schemes applied to Bf110s to be specific,I would have to defer to an expert on the type. It seems,as you say, that the early schemes are possible as well as the grey 74/75/76.
    Bf 109s were certainly repainted "in the field." You may be back to the old Luftwaffe modellers favourite "on the balance of probabilities"
    Steve
     
  8. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    And here is the same shot I found in another book about Bf110.The caption is different from the Kagero book.
     

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  10. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Wojtek!!!

    That picture is a little clearer than the one I have. Doesn't clear up the mystery patch on the tail yet though.
     
  11. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

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    IMHO, I'd say that it's the Wk Nr.....
     
  12. jamierd

    jamierd Member

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    sorry to hijack this thread i was just wondering in an earleir thread of my own i was informed that there was no such thing as a BF110c4/b it was in fact a C7 could mr vasco please clarify this for me once again sorry for hijacking your thread
     
  13. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Agree with Jan, I think the 'patch' on the top of the fin will be a cleared area in the distemper where the Wk Nr is.
     
  14. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Hum...the werk nummers seem to be written with bigger fonts.Of course there is possibility of using quite samll one.But I think it is more likly it is an area where the victories were marked.
     
  15. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Yup, and as Mr Vasco already pointed out, most machines of SKG 210 had the W. Nr on the fuselage under the elevator. I got my money on victory marks or possibly a patch for damage.

    Jamie, it's not a C-7. If it was there would have been bomb racks under the wings I believe. Not sure what the "b" in the C-4b is supposed to mean though, so I'm with you there.
     
  16. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

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    shouldn't you see the Wk. Nr. in this picture then...? Seem to be rather short if it's victory markings.
     
  17. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I think it depends on how many victories scored.
    If you look at the enlarged part of the pic you can notice a few white spots under the dark bar.However we can't exclude it is the werk nummer.
     

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  18. John Vasco

    John Vasco Member

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    Ignore the caption to that photo. 1./ZG 1 became 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 (July 1940), then later 1./SKG 210 (April 1941), then in January 1942 1./ZG 1 again. 1./ZG 1 NEVER became a part of II./SKG 210.
     
  19. John Vasco

    John Vasco Member

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    A good point Jamie, and well worth raising it so it can be clarified here.

    If I may quote directly from the excellent book, Messerschmitt Bf 110/Me 210/Me 410 by Heinz Mankau and Peter Petrick: "...Bf 110 C-4/B Bomber As C-7. Gotha supplied four machines under the designation Bf 110 C-4/B. These were later carried on the books as Bf 110 C-7s..." So, according to that book, C-4/Bs as a real designation with/for front line units is a myth. However, bear in mind that all kinds of weird and wonderful entries were being made by groundstaff when submitting loss returns up the line...
     
  20. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    One thing I've learned from reading a lot of posts in these forums is to always question the resource books. Photo references are great but captions and text could be rife with mistakes.

    That's a new dimension to this hobby I've come to enjoy - getting the subject to be as accurate to reality as reasonably possible. Thanks to everyone for your input and continued interest.
     
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