Bf-110 successor

[tomo pauk]

The Bf-110 was to be replaced with Me-210. The 210 program almost ended in tears, the redesign saved it. The plane eventually evolved in Me-410 (DB-603 on board); the Hungarians were producing for them Luftwaffe the Me-210Ca (DB-605 on board).
How would you run the successor show? How the '210' and '410' would've looked; any kind of 'plan B' (reasonable upgrade of the 110 in case something goes wrong with successor)? The more roles the successor can do well, the better

 

[rank amateur]

Hi Tomo,

Your subject made me check out the data on both the bf110 and the me210. I never noticed that the BF110g2 was actually faster than the Hungarian me210c. Both were using the DB605.
Makes the me210 look like a perfect waiste of time, money and effort.

I think the arado ar240, the Heinkel 219 and the Focke Wulf 154 would have made acceptable alternatives if given the chance.

 

[Juha]

Simply keeping Willy out from hindering the 210 design development, so after initial problems it would have evolved to 210 A-1 (lang), ie more or less like 210 Ca-1 but with 601F engines, much faster.

Juha

 

[Tante Ju]

The RLM wanted a 110 which carry bombs, internal in fuselage. They redesigned the 110 with a bomb bay, that become the 210.

And while Willy did mess up with the 210 - largely because he invested millions in jigs and did not want to waste that money - the RLM was also responsible, ordering the aircraft into production before proper testing was done.

 

[rank amateur]

Simply keeping Willy out from hindering the 210 design development, so after initial problems it would have evolved to 210 A-1 (lang), ie more or less like 210 Ca-1 but with 601F engines, much faster.

Juha

Are you sure that your 210 A-1 with 601F will be faster than the Hungarian 210c's with the 1475 hp db605?

 

[davebender]

Split the program. Two different aircraft for two different missions. They can probably share wings and some other components.

Me-210 Night fighter / Long range recon aircraft.
.....DB605 engines.
.....4 x MG151/20 mounted in fuselage sides.
.....Rear firing barbettes modified. MG-FF 20mm cannon. Can fire forward @ 65 degree angle for attacking enemy bombers.
.....No bomb bay, dive brakes, bomb sight or structural strengthening associated with dive bombing.
.....Armor protection cut in half to about 200kg.
.....2,430 liters of fuel in wing tanks (same as historical)
.....Fuselage modified as necessary to accomodate radar equipment. It might be a bit wider and/or longer then the historical Me-210C.
.....If necessary this aircraft can also be used as a daytime bomber interceptor. For that role you delete the radar, employ normal rear firing barbettes and perhaps add some aditional crew protection.

Me-410A Light Bomber.
.....Similiar to historical aircraft powered by DB603 engines.
.....If DB603 engines are not available in quantity then build the DB605 powered Me-210C.
.....This aircraft does not get employed as an interceptor. It is a long range light bomber.

 

[Juha]

Are you sure that your 210 A-1 with 601F will be faster than the Hungarian 210c's with the 1475 hp db605?

A-1 lang wasn't faster than Ca-1 but I meant that A-1 lang would have appeared much sooner

Juha

 

[tomo pauk]

The Me-210 (with DB-601F, 2 x 1350 HP) wasn't faster than Pe-2 (2 x 1200 HP), while carrying less bombs. The gun armament was heavier for the 210, though. Rank amateur's 1st post here is on the money re. how viable the 210 was, not only when compared with Bf-110.

How about a design starting from a clean sheet of paper, while upgrading the 110 (just in case)?

 

[Juha]

The Me-210 (with DB-601F, 2 x 1350 HP) wasn't faster than Pe-2 (2 x 1200 HP), while carrying less bombs...

IMHO 210 A-1 was faster 578km/h vs 506(1943) - 524 km/h(1944) for M-105PF powered Pe-2 according to Gordon's and Khazanov's book and in 1942 M-105RA powered Pe-2 was down to 488km/h from 530km/h in 41. But at the sea level speed very equal 463km/h vs 460(1943) - 465 km/h(1944) for M-105PF powered Pe-2.

Juha

 

[Denniss]

I never noticed that the BF110g2 was actually faster than the Hungarian me210c. Both were using the DB605.
Makes the me210 look like a perfect waiste of time, money and effort.

Do you have a source for this claim ? The Me 210 was a tad heavier but had much cleaner aerodynamics so it should be at least on par with the Bf 110 or faster.

 

[davebender]

By mid 1940 most Me-110 units were in the process of converting to the night fighter mission. Everything I have read suggests the Me-110 worked well in that role. So rather then replacing the Me-110 perhaps we should concentrate on modifying it for the new primary mission.

Limited fuel capacity was probably the Me-110s biggest shortcoming as a night fighter aircraft. The Me-210 carried approximately twice as much and it was in wing tanks. Graft the Me-210 wing onto the Me-110 fuselage. The endurance problem would be fixed. Nothing else needs to be changed.

 

[tomo pauk]

IMHO 210 A-1 was faster 578km/h vs 506(1943) - 524 km/h(1944) for M-105PF powered Pe-2 according to Gordon's and Khazanov's book and in 1942 M-105RA powered Pe-2 was down to 488km/h from 530km/h in 41. But at the sea level speed very equal 463km/h vs 460(1943) - 465 km/h(1944) for M-105PF powered Pe-2.

Juha

Of course, you're right, Juha. I was too lazy to check out the book, so went for the Source...with foreseeable result
Unfortunately for Germans, the high speed of their 210s/410s was barely sufficient on East, and on the slow side in West/MTO. Hence (but not only because of that) this thread.

 

[Siegfried]

The Me 210 had several advantages over the Me 110
1 More fuel and range.
2 Internal Bomb bay to allow high penetration speed.
3 Remote controlled armament meant the rear gunner could engage targets slightly below and to the side. In a turning fight the attacking fighter tends to end up below the line of fire of the defending gunner. Also a Me 110 rear gunner had a hard time aiming the guns while manouvering and he had no hope of reloading due to the G forces. The power driven barbetts of the Me 210 rectified this.
4 Me 210/410 added dive brakes for dive bombing, it also had a bullet proof glass window near the floor to line up the target. The short nose would have allowed the Stuvi 5B computing dive bombing sight with the BZA computing attachment to be used for shallow slide bombing attacks.

Finally the Me 210 could take the bigger DB603 engine.

Of course we never saw a Me 210 with the DB605AS, AM, ASM or DCM engine which were actually lighter and more powerfull than the DB603s used on the Me 410. Nor did we see the more powerfull engines possible on the Me 410 such as the DB603EM, DB603LA or Jumo 213E-1 all of them in the 2200hp range. There is no doubt this aircraft had room for significant performance increases.


As far as the Me 11o is concerned, I believe modern analysis of losses now show that it had at least a 1:1 exchange ratio with the British single seat fighters during the BoB and if given tactical freedom might have actually come out in front. The Me 109G2 managed 370mph, which made it slightly faster than any P-40 fielded and certainly faster than aircraft such as the Beaufighter.

 

[rank amateur]

Do you have a source for this claim ? The Me 210 was a tad heavier but had much cleaner aerodynamics so it should be at least on par with the Bf 110 or faster.

I must admitt not the most reliable one: good old wiki. If you have beter info, don't keep it a secret.

 

[davebender]

The Me 210 had several advantages over the Me 110
1 More fuel and range.
2 Internal Bomb bay to allow high penetration speed.
3 Remote controlled armament meant the rear gunner could engage targets slightly below and to the side. In a turning fight the attacking fighter tends to end up below the line of fire of the defending gunner. Also a Me 110 rear gunner had a hard time aiming the guns while manouvering and he had no hope of reloading due to the G forces. The power driven barbetts of the Me 210 rectified this.
4 Me 210/410 added dive brakes for dive bombing, it also had a bullet proof glass window near the floor to line up the target. The short nose would have allowed the Stuvi 5B computing dive bombing sight with the BZA computing attachment to be used for shallow slide bombing attacks.

Finally the Me 210 could take the bigger DB603 engine

The historical Me-210 was competing with the Ju-88A for the light bomber mission. An excellent aircaft for that role but it wasn't designed to replace the Me-110 night fighter. Perhaps that's part of the reason RLM rejected the Me-210C and instead chose to place the Me-110 back into production.

If you want to replace the Me-110 then you need a purpose built night fighter aircraft powered by readily available DB605 engines.

 

[wuzak]

The RLM wanted a 110 which carry bombs, internal in fuselage. They redesigned the 110 with a bomb bay, that become the 210.

Wasn't that actually the Messerschmitt Bf 162?

 

[tomo pauk]

The historical availability of really powerful engines (1500-2000 HP) in mid-ww2 reduces options for a great twin-engined fighter for the LW. The readily available engines that offer the good power are DB-601E/F (1350 HP in Notleistung authorised from start of 1942) and BMW-801D (authorised for Notleistung from Oct 1942, cca 1700 HP). The BMW-801 is as good as unavailable, though, the Fw-190 and some twin engined bombers having 1st call. The size of Me-210 is rather big, if we want it to be really fast.
My proposal would be a DH Hornet-sized plane, no bomb bay, no barbettes (maybe just one on top, rear, for day fighter-bomber duties, Shraege musik for night fighting), crew compartment on extreme front (much like at Me-210/410). That should make the speed at some 600 km/h with DB-601F possible (clean); night fighter at some 550-560 km/h. A tad faster once the DB-605A can run at Notleistung, even faster with DB-605AS/ASM (but keep it for the NFs, since LR escorts would've make easy kills anyway).

 

[davebender]

My proposal would be a DH Hornet-sized plane, no bomb bay, no barbettes (maybe just one on top, rear, for day fighter-bomber duties, Shraege musik for night fighting), crew compartment on extreme front (much like at Me-210/410). That should make the speed at some 600 km/h with DB-601F possible (clean); night fighter at some 550-560 km/h. A tad faster once the DB-605A can run at Notleistung, even faster with DB-605AS/ASM (but keep it for the NFs, since LR escorts would've make easy kills anyway).

Why do you want to repeat the failed Zerstorer experiment?

 

[Shortround6]

Did the concept "fail" or was it overtaken by technology and later Zorester aircraft just didn't look like the early ones?

Try comparing a Bf 110C to a P-47D. The P-47 is heavier (even empty) has more power and carries a heavier load of guns and ammo. Once the P-47 goes to the 370 gallons of internal fuel it even carries more internal fuel than than the 110.

1934-36 aircraft and engine concepts had trouble keeping pace with 1940-42 aircraft and engine concepts.

 

[davebender]

There were several superior day fighters during 1939. The Ju-87 and Ju-88 were superior light bombers. The Ju-88 was also superior for long range recon. What did the Me-110 excel at besides the unplanned night fighter role?