BMW 802 developed in 1936 instead?

[wiking85]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_802
Historically the BMW 801 was developed as Germany's high powered radial engine, which had 14 cylinders and 41.5 liter displacement, which is in contrast to the US R-2800 Double Wasp, which was basically two 9 cylinder radials bolted together resulting in a 46 liter displacement; why didn't BMW try and try and couple the BMW 132 together to get a German "Double Wasp" with 18 cylinders?

What if they decided to go the 'Double Wasp' route and get a 'beefier' engine out of their radial development, focusing on the 802 18 cylinder 46 liter displacement engine from 1936? Supposedly it could have been developed up to 2600 hp eventually, fitting in the Fw190 airframe:

Focke-Wulf FW Fighter Project w/ BMW 802 engine Luft '46 entry

In August 1941, Dipl-Ing Mittelhuber did a study on the design and performance of single-seat fighters with powerplants still under development. This was based on their Fw 190 design, which was just entering service at that time. One such fighter project researched was the aircraft based on the Fw 190 airframe, but with the BMW 802 18-cylinder, twin-row radial engine with a three-speed, single stage supercharger. This engine had a 2600 HP take-off rating, and could deliver 1600 HP at an altitude of 12000 m (39000'). The engine was to be housed in a BMW designed low drag cowling driving a 3.8 m (12' 6") variable pitch propeller. An alternate engine arrangement which was considered but not included in this study was the BMW P.8011 engine. This powerplant had a 2800-2900 HP take off rating. It was basically a BMW 802 with two exhaust gas turbines enclosed in an aerodynamic cowling, and it drove two contrarotating propellers. A bomb load of 500 kg (1102 lbs) or two 300 liter (66 gallon) drop tanks could be carried, or an optional 50 kg (110 lbs) bomb under each wing. No armament was provided for at this design stage. This project was not realized, however, and Focke-Wulf went on to develop their Ta 152 high altitude fighters.

The likely initially power would have been in the 1800-2000hp range (with B4 fuel) by 1942. This would have been a pretty mighty engine that could have made the Fw190 even more powerful as a lower altitude fighter. With supercharger development it could have maintained 1600hp at 39000 feet by 1943 according to the Luft46 article, had it been started sooner and not abandoned in favor of jet engines.
Had this been available in late 1943 the LW wouldn't have experienced the sort of attrition it did historically by this period and could have had some pretty fast aircraft too. Why wasn't this route taken?

 

[tomo pauk]

Since the R-2800 was hard pressed to deliver 1600 HP at 39000 ft with turbo, a single stage BMW 802 will be rather short of that mark. BMW went for a 14 cylinder engine probably because they felt that it would be a lowe risk project?

 

[davebender]

During late 1920s they were the premier German V12 manufacturer. Why didn't they remain a serious contender to Daimler-Benz and Junkers for V12 contracts?

BMW132 radial was in production during 1934. Why did they need almost 8 years to introduce their next generation radial engine? A BMW radial producing 1,200 to 1,500 hp would be serious competition to Jumo 211 if available during late 1930s.

 

[Shortround6]

During late 1920s they were the premier German V12 manufacturer. Why didn't they remain a serious contender to Daimler-Benz and Junkers for V12 contracts?.

They were also the premier German V12 manufacturer until about 1935-36. Unfortunately this "premier" V-12 engine was little more than TWO WW I inline 6s running on a common crankshaft.

BMW132 radial was in production during 1934. Why did they need almost 8 years to introduce their next generation radial engine? A BMW radial producing 1,200 to 1,500 hp would be serious competition to Jumo 211 if available during late 1930s.

Engines take a while to develop. BMW tried to build such an engine, it was called the BMW 139 and powered the FW 190 and DO 217 prototypes. It was a twin 132. It also didn't work very well.
Now before this is take as criticism of German engineers please note that the Wright R-3350 that powered the B-29 was not only not really ready for prime time in 1944 but it was a NEW engine that shared little more than the bore and stroke with the 1938/39 R-3350 that powered the B-19 bomber. Also please note that it took the Russian FOUR attempts to get to about the same place (and until 1945/46) after starting in the same Place as Wright (licensed R-1820 9 cylinder radial).
Gnome Rhone tried to build an 18 cylinder version of their 14 cylinder, it went nowhere and neither did the Italian and British versions of the same engine.

This "just" add a row or add two cylinders to each row change was a lot harder than it seems at first glance.

 

[wiking85]

Engines take a while to develop. BMW tried to build such an engine, it was called the BMW 139 and powered the FW 190 and DO 217 prototypes. It was a twin 132. It also didn't work very well.

Was the 139 18 cylinders? I thought it was also 14 like the 801.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801

Edit: apparently it was a 14 cylinder:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/bmw-139-information-13261.html

 

[nuuumannn]

Remember also that between the wars the Germans didn't have fleets of fighter and bomber projects to which they could fit their big engines. The German engine industry didn't undergo the same development and growth as that in the UK, the United States and in other European countries.

 

[Shortround6]

Remember also that between the wars the Germans didn't have fleets of fighter and bomber projects to which they could fit their big engines. The German engine industry didn't undergo the same development and growth as that in the UK, the United States and in other European countries.

Actually they weren't that far behind. Production engines of much over 1000hp were few and far between in the Mid 30s. A few experimental engines had been built, usually X-24s of some sort ( some using odd cylinder bank angles) to use V-12 parts but the airframe makers hadn't taken them up on yet.

Boeing XB-15

Used 850hp R-1830s in 1937 because nothing larger was available.

 

[davebender]

When did BMW begin development of BMW139 engine?

Germany had no air force prior to 1935 but they had the largest airline in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if Lufthansa was largest in the world prior to late 1930s. That's ample reason to develop a follow on to BMW 132. Next generation airliners such as Fw-200 and Ju-252 need a next generation engine.

 

[Shortround6]

Was the 139 18 cylinders? I thought it was also 14 like the 801.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801

Edit: apparently it was a 14 cylinder:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/bmw-139-information-13261.html

Thank you, I guess my books are old and in error.

 

[rinkol]

They were also the premier German V12 manufacturer until about 1935-36. Unfortunately this "premier" V-12 engine was little more than TWO WW I inline 6s running on a common crankshaft.



Engines take a while to develop. BMW tried to build such an engine, it was called the BMW 139 and powered the FW 190 and DO 217 prototypes. It was a twin 132. It also didn't work very well.
Now before this is take as criticism of German engineers please note that the Wright R-3350 that powered the B-29 was not only not really ready for prime time in 1944 but it was a NEW engine that shared little more than the bore and stroke with the 1938/39 R-3350 that powered the B-19 bomber. Also please note that it took the Russian FOUR attempts to get to about the same place (and until 1945/46) after starting in the same Place as Wright (licensed R-1820 9 cylinder radial).
Gnome Rhone tried to build an 18 cylinder version of their 14 cylinder, it went nowhere and neither did the Italian and British versions of the same engine.

This "just" add a row or add two cylinders to each row change was a lot harder than it seems at first glance.

Agreed. 18 cylinder radial engines present really challenging engineering problems that were not well understood in the 1930s and early 1940s. Aside from the problem of cooling the second row of cylinders, there are balance/vibration issues that are much more challenging than those of 14 cylinder engines. As of 1940, the P&W R-2800 was about the only such engine that was more or less ready for service use and capable of significantly exceeding the power output of other available engines. The French, Italians, Soviets and Japanese all produced numerous designs that suffered from poor reliability and/or were limited to low power levels. P&W was successful with the R-2800, but it took considerable effort and built on their long experience with air cooled engines.

 

[Shortround6]

Germany had no air force prior to 1935 but they had the largest airline in Europe.

Will you PLEASE stop repeating this LIE?

The Luftwaffe had hundreds of aircraft in service in 1934 and had aircraft in production and IN SERVICE in 1933.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lufthansa was largest in the world prior to late 1930s. That's ample reason to develop a follow on to BMW 132. Next generation airliners such as Fw-200 and Ju-252 need a next generation engine.

Actually going from 2000hp total installed to 3-4000hp installed can be handled quite nicely by the exiting engines by simple upgrading. Ju-52 used three 715hp or under engines in most models. Most Early DC-3 used under 900hp engines. Uprated engines of 900-1100hp each gives you around 3000hp in a triple or 4000hp in a four engine aircraft. FW 200 did quite nicely with uprated BMW 132s. Using two big engines instead of 4 smaller ones doesn't do much for an airliner. Especially from the safety stand point. Engine failure loosing 25% of power or 50% of power?
Airlines weren't really ready for 6000-9000hp aircraft (four 1500-2200hp engines) in the 30s.

 

[davebender]

Airlines weren't really ready for 6000-9000hp aircraft (four 1500-2200hp engines) in the 30s.

Ju-252 was supposed to have three Jumo 211 engines producing 1,340 to about 1,500hp each. Why not build a 1,300 to 1,500hp radial engine to compete for the contract?

 

[wiking85]

Ju-252 was supposed to have three Jumo 211 engines producing 1,340 to about 1,500hp each. Why not build a 1,300 to 1,500hp radial engine to compete for the contract?

The best you'll get is the Bramo 132, which ceased development beyond 1200hp. You might be okay if the BMW 6 was pursued (v12 radial). Otherwise have the Jumo 223 worked on sooner and ready earlier, which gives you diesel powered dual engines in the 2000hp range.

 

[Shortround6]

They built 15 Ju 252s (52,000lbs) that is 45 engines plus 50% spares brings you to just under 70 engines, Without a LOT more sales in prospect that is a losing proposition. You need to sell engines by the hundreds if not thousands to make any real money, not dozens.
Wright had sold over 8,000 9 cylinder Cyclones since the 1920s.
The JU 352 (43,000lbs) used uprated 9 cylinder radials.

The earlier JU 90 (74,000lbs) had used 9 cylinder radials a bit under powered? but Viable aircraft could be built using uprated models of exiting engines in the 1937-40 time frame. The bigger radials come later, 1940 and on.

Three 1500hp engines is 4500hp.
Four 1100hp engines is 4400hp.

 

[davebender]

Junkers intended to build a lot more. Probably would have replaced Ju-52 production if RLM had allowed it.

Another one of my favorite should have been produced aircraft...
Arado Ar 232 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ar-232B transport performed so well powered by four 1,200hp Bramo 323 engines that plans were made for an enlarged Ar-532 powered by six Bramo 323 engines. Seems to me they would be further ahead sticking with four engines but of a more powerful type. Something similar to Bristol Hercules.

 

[nuuumannn]

Shortround, what is that monstrosity above the picture of the XB-15 that you posted?

Germany had no air force prior to 1935 but they had the largest airline in Europe.

According to a book I have on the Luftwaffe, by the time that its existence was publicly revealed in 1935, the Luftwaffe's strength stood at 1,888 aircraft of all types and some 20,000 officers and men, with the support of between 30 and 40 airframe manufacturers. That's a lot of airliners, pilots and stewards.

Personally, having worked in the airline industry, I would have thought that the single-seat, single-engined He 51 would not be a very successful revenue earning short haul carrier.

 

[Shortround6]

The engine pictured is the Napier Cub, The worlds first 1000hp aircraft engine. A 3,681 cubic in X-(??)-16 that weighed 2450lbs.

Flown in this and one other aircraft.

It took air frame makers a while to figure out what to do with 1000hp engines and it took engine makers a while to figure out how to make 1000 HP engines that didn't look like escapees from a locomotive workshop.

 

[nuuumannn]

That's an Avro Aldershot; they were originally powered by a Rolls Royce Condor. Just found some info on the Cub; it was also flown in a Blackburn Cubaroo, which was as ugly as the engine that powered it. The Cub was a 16 cylinder engine of four banks of four cylinders; the upper angle between the cylinder banks being 52.5 degrees apart and the lower being 90 degrees apart, giving its extraordinary appearance. Originally began in 1919, it first flew in the Aldershot above in late 1922. It was a 1,000 hp engine, 3,681 cu in of ugliness.

So this begs the question, Shortround; why did you post a picture of the Napier Cub in a thread about German engine development?

 

[nuuumannn]

As an addition to your last post, Shortround, for escapees from locomotive workshops, you don't need to go much further than the Beardmore Tornado developed for the airship R.101!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Germany had no air force prior to 1935 but they had the largest airline in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if Lufthansa was largest in the world prior to late 1930s. That's ample reason to develop a follow on to BMW 132. Next generation airliners such as Fw-200 and Ju-252 need a next generation engine.

David, you know that is not true. Germany was building up there Air Force and disguising it with the Airline.

You know damn well that Germany was using "secret" training bases outside of Germany to train its pilots. There was an official Luftwaffe chain of Command prior to 1935, just using a different name.

It was just not until 1935 that the Luftwaffe "officially" and "openly" existed.

Seriously, you know this!