Boeing, Douglas & Vega-built B-17F's

[Hoggardhigh]

Hi all,

I'd like to know whether B-17F's built by Boeing, Douglas, and Lockheed-Vega were built to the same standards or very nearly so. Does anyone have any information on this?

Thanks

 

[FLYBOYJ]

All were built to the same "standards." Basically Douglas and Lockheed (Vega) became Boeing subcontractors and were given production drawings and tooling (they probably built most of the latter themselves). There's been discussion about which plant built the "better" aircraft but in essence if it passed production and flight test inspection it really didn't matter.

 

[fubar57]

Here are lists of production numbers broken down by plants as well as a link to Joe Baugher's site, broken down into 30 categories...

Boeing B-17 aircraft, airplane photos and information. Welcome to John 2031.com All about aviation and stuff that really matters

 

[Hoggardhigh]

All were built to the same "standards." Basically Douglas and Lockheed (Vega) became Boeing subcontractors and were given production drawings and tooling (they probably built most of the latter themselves). There's been discussion about which plant built the "better" aircraft but in essence if it passed production and flight test inspection it really didn't matter.

If the aircraft were all built to the same standard, what (specific) internal differences did they have between them? And were all of their parts interchangeable?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If the aircraft were all built to the same standard, what (specific) internal differences did they have between them? And were all of their parts interchangeable?

They should of had NO differences and all their parts should have been interchangeable.

 

[Hoggardhigh]

They should of had NO differences and all their parts should have been interchangeable.

Did this apply to both the B-17F and B-17G models? How do you know that the B-17s from all three manufacturers were built to the same standard?

 

[GrauGeist]

If the aircraft were all built to the same standard, what (specific) internal differences did they have between them? And were all of their parts interchangeable?

Would have been very little difference between the different manufacturers, as they were all working from the same set of design information.

Also, many of the components used in the assembly process would have been from the same supllier to all the manufacturers: engines, turrets, landing gear assemblies and so on.

Many mass produced aircraft of WWII were sub-contracted to other manufacturers, like Focke-Wulf's Fw190, for example. Not only did Focke-Wulf manufacture them at their various facilities, but they were also manufactured by AGO, Arado, Erla, Feisler, Mimetall, Norddeutsche Dornier, Seibel and Wesser.

The need for compatability between manufacturers was important because once the aircraft reached the front, it had to be maintained and serviced as quickly as possible. If you had three different types of the same aircraft (for example), it would become a logistical nightmare.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Did this apply to both the B-17F and B-17G models? How do you know that the B-17s from all three manufacturers were built to the same standard?

This applied to any aircraft where the aircraft was subcontracted to another company. If Lockheed or Douglas B-17s were not built to the same standard, you would have had several thousand B-17s delivered with different parts and components, no interchangeability and a lot of pissed off people, but it's obvious history tells a different story, that's how I know. I also worked at Lockheed Burbank for a number of years and actually worked with people who worked at Vega.

To ensure that these aircraft were manufactured properly, the government assigned inspectors and quality assurance personnel to oversee production, a practice still in place today.

The only manufacturer that had major quality problems while building subcontracted aircraft was Brewster Aircraft.

 

[GrauGeist]

Douglas also built B-24s (along with Ford)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Martin and Bell also built B-29s

Boeing B-29 Superfortress history, design, development, production numbers, assembly lines, specifications, and surviving planes

 

[Old Wizard]

 

[wuzak]

The only manufacturer that had major quality problems while building subcontracted aircraft was Brewster Aircraft.

Didn't Curtiss have issues with the quality of their P-47s?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Didn't Curtiss have issues with the quality of their P-47s?

From Wiki;

"The Curtiss plant experienced serious problems and delays in producing Thunderbolts, and the 354 Curtiss-built fighters were relegated to stateside advanced flight training."

They reference USAAF fighters of World War Two by O'Leary

 

[Hoggardhigh]

This applied to any aircraft where the aircraft was subcontracted to another company. If Lockheed or Douglas B-17s were not built to the same standard, you would have had several thousand B-17s delivered with different parts and components, no interchangeability and a lot of pissed off people, but it's obvious history tells a different story, that's how I know. I also worked at Lockheed Burbank for a number of years and actually worked with people who worked at Vega.

To ensure that these aircraft were manufactured properly, the government assigned inspectors and quality assurance personnel to oversee production, a practice still in place today.

The only manufacturer that had major quality problems while building subcontracted aircraft was Brewster Aircraft.

The website B17queenofthesky.com mentions structural differences between the B-17F's built by the different factories. Are those claims accurate or not?

 

[Peter Gunn]

Depends on what "structural differences" they are talking about, I'm guessing anything and everything fresh from the factory was pretty much the same, no matter what factory it came from. We're not talking about the difference between Chevy's and Fords here, as Flyboy said, they are built to a government contract with inspectors assigned to make sure they were all up to specs and hence, interchangeable regardless of manufacturer.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The website B17queenofthesky.com mentions structural differences between the B-17F's built by the different factories. Are those claims accurate or not?

I would say they are probably wrong, but putting a disclaimer out there, "if," and a big if a structural deviation was allowed between what Boeing designed and what Lockheed and Douglas built, it would have had to be approved by Boeing and the government. I've seen no specific evidence anywhere that this was the case or any specifics on what was supposed to be different.

Lockheed did do some modifications to B-17s but this was separate and distinct from was was coming off the general assembly line.

 

[pbehn]

There would be a very small scope to change anything anyway. Nominally an aircraft is manufactured in a factory however everything else that is bought in or supplied must still fit. Any major changes, as others have said would be a nightmare in the field as far as training and serviceability goes.

 

[Robert Porter]

As far as I know, any major changes were done post production at the various modification centers, such as the Cheyenne Modification Center. Some of those changes were indeed at least in part structural but not in the sense that I think is alluded to above. And of course a lot of field modifications were made, some of which were incorporated in later versions some not so much.

 

[Hoggardhigh]

I would say they are probably wrong, but putting a disclaimer out there, "if," and a big if a structural deviation was allowed between what Boeing designed and what Lockheed and Douglas built, it would have had to be approved by Boeing and the government. I've seen no specific evidence anywhere that this was the case or any specifics on what was supposed to be different.

Lockheed did do some modifications to B-17s but this was separate and distinct from was was coming off the general assembly line.

What specific modifications did Lockheed do to B-17s?

 

[Robert Porter]

Lockheed operating as Vega, was responsible for 2 variants of the B-17 the XB-38 and the YB-40. Many of these modifications first tested in these aircraft made it into production as the B-17G. The Tulsa modification center was where most Vega built aircraft ended up. Staggered waist gun positions were accommodated there as were other changes made too late to affect aircraft in production queues.

There were 20 odd modification centers scattered around the US. A good list is here: Warbirds and Airshows- WWII Aircraft Modification Centers

Vega was rolled back into Lockheed mid 1943 but was the 'V' in BVD for Boing Vega Douglas which were the primary 3 producers of the B-17 during the war years. As mentioned above all 3 received sub assemblies and other common parts from sub contractors all over the country.