C-119. Air transport game changer.

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by davebender, Nov 13, 2014.

  1. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Bernard Fall's book on Dien Bien Phu (Hell in a very small place) has made me realize what a game changer the C-119 transport aircraft was. French forces employed both C-119s and C-47s to supply the fortified outpost.

    C-47 dropped about 3 tons of cargo but required about 10 passes over drop zone. Cargo was dropped in small packets out side door. That gave enemy AA gunners 10 chances to shoot C-47 down. It also tied up air pattern 10 times. Needless to say, if enemy fighter aircraft had been present they would have had a turkey shoot.

    C-119 made a single pass over drop zone while ejecting 6 tons of cargo in one large load. Hence one C-119 was worth several C-47s for cargo delivery. It also allowed delivery of large cargo items which simply wouldn't fit through C-47 cargo door.

    C119_flying_boxcar.jpg
     
  2. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    The C-119 ushered in a new era in military air transport and supply drop, but it was quickly eclipsed when the C-123 and C-130 came along. Both "dollar nineteen" and C-123 were under powered and even with the added jets seen in later models weren't a big help, nevertheless a classic aircraft!
     
  3. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Took a few years to get the concept to really work.

    Started in 1943 (?)

    C-82
    c82_01.jpg
     
  4. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

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    Looks like an enlarged Ar 232 with better engines.
     
  5. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Yep - the C-82 started out with 2 R-2800s, one was modified with 4360s and eventually the C-119 was born. I think the C-119 was just a little larger as well.
     
  6. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I am not sure much of anything was actually the same.
     
  7. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    I knew a few people who flew them, they said it could barely get out of it's own way.
     
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  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    That thought occurred to me. I think Germany missed the boat. Ar-232B (4 x Bramo 323 engines) should have replaced Ju-52 production. Sure there would have been disruption but it would have been worth it. Ar-232 could drop 4.5 tons of cargo in a single pass. Roomy cargo compartment (7.6m x 2.3m x 2m high) allows large equipment such as PaK 40 AT gun.
     
  9. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    10094L.jpg

    This would have been an improvement over the Ju-52.
     
  10. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    #10 tyrodtom, Nov 13, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
    My older brother started his Army career jumping from the C-119.

    He said they were so noisy, drafty, and vibrated so much, he would have jumped, even if he didn't have a parachute.

    I remember his remarks on the unofficial policy on heavy equipment drops. Usually the vehicles chosen for a drop would be the worse in the motor pool. Any cargo heavy, or large enough to need multiple parachutes, had a increased chance of a unsuccessful drop. So the motor pool Sgts. usually didn't put their best vehicles at risk.
     
  11. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    That's to be expected during peacetime training exercises. War is a different story.

    Fairchild C-119 Flying Boxcar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    An early example of what C-119 and other such purpose built cargo aircraft could accomplish. C-47 could carry 2,900lbs but not as a single piece of equipment 16 feet in length. Nor could C-47 airdrop 2,900lbs of cargo in a single pass.
     
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  12. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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  13. Balljoint

    Balljoint Member

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    I trust the port engine is just a little rich.
     
  14. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    Thats a real fly straight and level till the curvature of the Earth builds you some altitude take off. I think the smoke coming out of the port engine was actually from the crew turning the air blue.
     
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  15. Tracker

    Tracker Active Member

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  16. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Back in the late '60s, the Minnesota Air National Guard flew them from MSP international airport. I saw them every day lining up into the traffic patterns. I lived under one of the approach paths way back then.
     
  17. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    #17 GrauGeist, Dec 5, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
    There was a recognition for transports, but the Me323 was the Luftwaffe's "go to" for heavy lift and it was the Me323 that was the grandfather of modern heavy transports.

    The advantage the Ar232B had over the Me323, was it's ability to air-drop men and/or equipment. However, since the Luftwaffe had literally thousands of Ju52/3 types in service, other types weren't given a high priority.

    One thing to consider about the Luftwaffe's transport service, was that once they lost air superiority, none of the primary transports (Ju52, Ar232, Me323 or the Go244) had much of a chance of survival. The Stalingrad airlift was an example of that.
     
  18. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    An airframe production choice. Things didn't need to work out that way.

    Ar-232 could be powered by same radial engines as Ju-52. Ju-252 was powered by readily available Jumo-211 engines. Either or both transports might have replaced the much less capable Ju-52 around 1940.
     
  19. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    How could a aircraft whose design wasn't started until late 1939, and first flew in mid 1941, replace the JU-52 in 1940, or even around 1940 ??
     
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