camo on Schramm's Bf 109E-4 (or 7) Jg 53 BoB = questions

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Ruud, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. Ruud

    Ruud Member

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    #1 Ruud, Aug 11, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
    Currently i am building a ML-KNIL P-40N (probably Spit Kitty C3-502), a Fw 190D-11 (<61), a Bf 109G-4 (AR 365-1), and a Bf 109E-4/7 (Jg 53). I've got reference material on the P-40N, the Fw 190D-11, and (with help from here and on a few other sites) guidance on the Bf 109G-4. The Bf 109E-4/7 from Jg 53 is a bit more difficult.

    Jg 53 was know to experiment with different camouflages. A friend is letting me use one scheme from his Aeromasters BoB RAF/Luft combo sheets. I was thinking of doing Mullers <0+I but can find no reference photos of it. I did find a few pictures of Schramm's white 6+I.
    (updated with the new links)
    http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...-7.JG53-(W6+)-Schramm-France-Nov-1940-01.html
    http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...6+I)-Herbert-Schramm-France-June-1940-01.html
    http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...6+I)-Herbert-Schramm-France-June-1940-01.html

    The reason i'm going for Jg 53 is that while i really want to make a BoB 109, i like Jg 53 and i like not having to put on a hakenkruis. There was a short window when Jg 53 put their Pik As back on (took of the red band) and flew with out the hakenkruis. I can at least find a few pictures of Schramm's plane.

    My questions:

    Should i use the pointed prop hub or the flat one with the opening.

    Should i assume 70/02/65 or 70/02/76 or is it new enough to be 74/75/76?

    Standard jagged wing camo or?

    The mottling looks to be very thin but covering all of the sides.
     
  2. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I'll have a look at my references when I can get to them. Not sure if I have a photo of his aircraft, but there were many and varied camouflage patterns, not at all like 'standard' schemes. Also, the swastika was removed from Stab aircraft, as a form of protest, not all aircraft, and only for a short period.
     
  3. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I don't seem to have any pictures showing that kind of detail for this aircraft.
    Terry is quite correct that the swastikas were not removed from all JG 53 aircraft, and many (like Mombeek) think it was just on the aircraft of the Geschwader stab that this was done. Those officers may have been senior enough to get away with it.
    The profile seems to be from December 1940 by which time the red cowl band was removed and the "Pik As" emblem reinstated......along with the swastika. I'd expect it to be there but you never know, maybe the profile artists has seen a photograph which we have not.
    As for the camouflage, this period is about the most uncertain there is. I'd probably go with 71/02/65 with a mottle of the first two. No idea on the spinner but I'd say more photos show JG 53 with capped than uncapped spinners which isn't very scientific!
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  4. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    I've found 2 profiles, no actual photos.

    Geo
     
  5. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    #5 Airframes, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
    The photos in 'Brothers in Arms', by Chris Goss, the book I can't get to at the moment, show mainly heavy, wave pattern and mottle on the fuselages, often with an overspray believed to be RLM 02, and possibly RLM 75, with wings also in wave patterns, similar in some way to RAF pattern, not the 'splinter' as normally seen.
    The 'Pik As' was reinstated around November 1940, although at least one photo shows this being in place as early as late August/ early September 1940, possibly earlier.
    Main colours seemed to vary, with 71/02 and what is believed to be locally mixed greys, possibly the forerunner of the 'official' 74/75/76 also being used.
     
  6. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    There is even at least one photograph of the "Pik As" emblem applied over the red cowl band......just to add a bit more confusion.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  7. Ruud

    Ruud Member

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    A guy on 72nd Scale Aircraft posted a two pictures of Jg 53 E-3's all with the cap on the spinner. One of the pictures in the link on my first post shows Schramm by the tail of his Emil and it looks to have no swas. I'll have to guestimate on how the wing camo looks.
     
  8. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I'd agree that most do seem to be capped, but not all.

    [​IMG]

    As for upper wing camouflage, before the mixed greys a large overspray of 02 over the 70/71 seems to have worked at least on some. Here's "Black 8" of 2./JG 53.

    [​IMG]

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  9. Ruud

    Ruud Member

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    Funny to see three guys working hard, and one sitting.

    True on the nose cap, but it seems common enough and the one picture showing Schamm's 109's nose "seems" to show one. I think i am safe to use it.

    Did any 109E's come from the factory in the 71/02/65 scheme? If Schramm's did, then the wing camo should get simpler.
     
  10. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Aaah, but he's a pilot!

    Aircraft were delivered in the 71/02/65 scheme but I'd have to check when Messerschmitt and the various sub-contractors started the newer scheme. (it's been a while since I did an early 109 :) ). As for Schramm, I don't know.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  11. Ruud

    Ruud Member

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    #11 Ruud, Jan 6, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
    Thanks Steve.

    The mottling on Schramm's plane as well as the second picture Steve posted (with the pilot sitting on the wing) seem to show a soft mottling that is fairly even over the whole side of the fuselage. Would i be correct to go that route? Sorry to pester, but this will be my first attempt at mottling.
     
  12. Ruud

    Ruud Member

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    On the advice of a fellow modeler, i took the pictures into Photoshop and played with the colors some. Trying to get the RLM 04 to look right, check to see how much blue/red/green is in the picture etc.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    They're tough pictures to play with. Even with picture 2 and 3 seeming to be taken within a narrow time period, they are impossible for me to get them to look more "alike."
     
  13. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I wouldn't trust these pictures if we took colours into consideration.
     
  14. Ruud

    Ruud Member

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    i do not trust them either. But they seem to "hint" at the colors. Each picture is different. Their RGBs are all over the map. My wife thinks it is because the age of the pictures when they were scanned. It does seem like there is very little contrast between the two colors used on the wings. Also more glare there too, which might hide some of the contrast? I'd like to paint it "right" but in all likelihood i'll have to go with my gut feeling.
     
  15. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Yes , the time when they were scanned has a significant meaning. However these pics don't have to be the origin images taken with the colour negative. There is a difference between a such pictures and images printed in magazines ( the Life e.g ) and other newspapers from the past. It's because the old techinque used colour filters for image printing contrary to the digital one using these days. Also it's unlikely that an ordinary photographer-amatour could use a colour photographic film during the war when all suffered from shortage of many things. Therefore I would follow colour chips by RLM or FS rather.
     
  16. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    According to Stona this is a nice representation of RLM 04 Gelb.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #17 Wurger, Jan 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
    And for comparing....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ruud

    Ruud Member

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    #18 Ruud, Jan 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
    Yep, i was not going to mix my colors to match the pictures, just to get an idea on the mottling and the colors used. The pictures seem to hint at a hybrid scheme of 70/71/65 with 02 and 71 mottling on the sides. Of course it could just be the standard 71/02/65 with 02 and 71 mottling. The sides do seem to be painted pretty evenly with 02 (and a lot of grime).

    The 70/71/65 with 02 seems feasible to me as Jg53 did operate some planes in this scheme earlier in 1940. Add a yellow nose and there it is.
     
  19. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I don't worry too much about the exact yellow used for these tactical markings. Whereas RLM 04 from the correct lacquer group would usually be used for applying codes and 'staffel/gruppe' markings to an aircraft I'm not convinced that it was always used for tactical markings.
    The way they were applied and the manner in which they weathered would suggest something else was used, at least sometimes. That 'kennziffer' on the Fw 190 above has been at the bottom of a fjord for seventy years, but it's still there. Some Bf 109 E cowlings were losing the yellow paint in a couple of weeks.
    RLM 04 was a colour used for markings and it may be that units did not carry sufficient stocks to mark large areas like cowlings and rudders with the specified permanent lacquer.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  20. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    The tactical / I.D. markings, such as the yellow, or white, nose, wing tips and rudder, were applied using a 'washable', distemper-type paint. This was mixed as a paste, diluted with water, and weathered very easily and very quickly. The yellow, in particular, can't really be precisely matched to RLM 04, as it would depend on the 'mix', and application, even before weathering.
     
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