Cannon-armed vs. machine gun-armed Me 109s

[Greyman]

Does anyone have any data on the ratio of Messerschmitt 109s armed with cannons versus those with just MG 17s?

I imagine things evolved over time (ratio over Poland no doubt differed from that over Russia) but anything anyone has would be appreciated.

 

[Juha2]

Hello
Because some losses are marked only as Bf 109 Es, nothing definite on how the BoB 109 losses were distributed amongst the subtypes but it seem that 25% to 33% of the Bf 109 E losses were E-1s, not surprising because it is roughly the ratio of E-1 produced compared to the whole Emil production which is about 33% (including E-1/B). Some E-1s might well be upgraded to E-4s but that would include the change of wings because MG 17 was placed into a different wing "bay" than MG/FF.

 

[Airframes]

Not sure the wings were changed when the E-1 was upgraded to E-3 or E-4. Many photos show the original MG port fared over, with the cannon fitted on E-1s modified to later standard. Far as I know without digging deeper, the cannon bay area was strengthened when the mods took place.

 

[stona]

Christer Bergstrom gives some good figures for the Battle of Britain.

About 40% of Bf 109s at the Channel airfields were E-1s. On 31st August, of 740 Bf 109s serviceable, the sub types were represented thus.
307 x E-1, 103 x E-3, 304 x E-4 and 27 x E-7.

E-1 production ended in August 1940, but of the 323 Bf 109s delivered to units on the Channel up to the end of September, exactly 100 were E-1s. I find it unlikely that new production E-1s were cannon armed, they would have been designated as a later sub-type at the factory.

We don't know how many E-1s were upgraded and cannon fitted in this period, but it usually happened after damage and a substantial repair.

The sub-type was far more common than most narratives imply. There is a general misconception that ALL Bf 109s involved in the BoB were cannon armed, and thereby more heavily armed than RAF fighters, whereas in fact very many were armed with four machine guns, just half the armament of the British fighters.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Juha2]

Hello Airframes
thanks for the correction!

Juha

 

[pbehn]

The sub-type was far more common than most narratives imply. There is a general misconception that ALL Bf 109s involved in the BoB were cannon armed, and thereby more heavily armed than RAF fighters, whereas in fact very many were armed with four machine guns, just half the armament of the British fighters.

An easy misconception to have, I have seen and heard the ex BoB pilot Georffrey Wellum say on T.V. that the Bf109 had cannon and compared the size of the Bf109 munition to that of a Spitfire's. I don't know if RAF BoB pilots believed all Bf 109s had cannon or not, but that was the impression left by the documentary.

 

[Greyman]

For what it's worth - I've been going over examinations of 109 wrecks during the Battle of Britain - and made a graph. Any 109s that had their armament noted were included.

 

[pbehn]

For what it's worth - I've been going over examinations of 109 wrecks during the Battle of Britain - and made a graph. Any 109s that had their armament noted were included.

View attachment 488739

That is a labour of love, respect.

 

[chuter]

The 109E-7 at lanes of Fame has both machine gun and cannon ports in the wing. My unanswered question to them was did this mean this aircraft (or just the wing set) was originally built as an E-1 or was the machine gun port a feature of (all or some?) subsequent variant wing sets. It would have been so easy to delete the port from that wing skin I can't believe they wouldn't have done it.

I have a few questions nobody (yet) has been able to answer. My favorite one concerns the B-25.

 

[Airframes]

See Post #3.

 

[chuter]

See Post #3.

lol - I saw that. Doesn't answer the question, really, though, does it. Was the wing made new like that for a later model or was it an updated E-1 set? If I were forced to put $5 on an answer to that I would say it was an updated E-1 wing but that's just my opinion.

 

[Airframes]

Since posting my original reply in Post #3, I did a little more digging. It seems that the 'E' series wing remained the same throughout production, with the original opening for the MG gun port fired-over, and those later variants, including the E-7, having the cannon bay added and the area stengthened,
The faired-over MG port is not always visible in some photos, due to lighting etc, but it's doubtful that the machine tool set-up was changed, just to remove a relatively small opening in the leading edge, when it would be easier, quicker and cheaper to fit a blanking plate.
Similar 'mods' can be seen on the various series of FW190s.