Clip tip Spit
- Thread starter Eighthaf
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Hi Eighthaf! There are loads of references for the MkIX Spit, but one of the easiest is probably the Squadro/Signal publication, 'Aircraft No.39', Spitfire in Action.' It's got 'photos and plans for the MkIX, among others, and makes a good start point. The 'pointed' tail, due to the broader chord rudder, was found on late-model MkIX's, MkVIII's, and the MkXVI, the latter being, basically, a MkIX with a Packard-built Merlin engine. Check your references for the actual machine you want to build. Haven't seen the kit but, if you need to modify the wingtips, take a line outboard of the wing-tip joint (should be visible on the model, right next to outboard edge of aileron) and make your cut, then file and sand to the correct profile/shape. Good luck with the build.
- Thread starter
- #3
Thanks, I'm putting together references now. Apparently some of the Vs had clipped tips as well, so I'm going to have to start digging and bringing myself up to speed on Spits.
Funny, how a nice-looking kit can drive you to go digging for a model that until you'd seen the kit you'd have never considered building.
Eighth
Funny, how a nice-looking kit can drive you to go digging for a model that until you'd seen the kit you'd have never considered building.
Eighth
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
So true! I often start with a particular machine in mind, get the kit, then think...mmm! I wonder if I should try...? Just nearly done it with the P38 I'm building, and should be getting a 1/48th B26 tomorrow, have to see what happens there! By the way, what scale is your MkIX? I converted a Hasegawa 1/32 nd. scale MkV into a MkIX some years ago, turned out O.K. Will post some pics when my PC back on line and I can stop using this gas-powered laptop!
- Thread starter
- #6
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Hi Eighth, sorry for the delay, I got sidetracked. I will be posting some pics of the Spit IX conversion soon, along with the conversion from the Hasegawa Spit V to Spit IA. On the IX, I moulded a new front end, cowling etc. from Milliput (2 part epoxy putty), cast prop blades in resin from the originals, scratch built the radiators etc. It looks O.K., but close examination of the rads will show a slight discrepancy in sizes!
The MkV to MkIA was easier, mainly removing the cannons and blisters, re-scribing gun access panels etc., and altering the oil cooler. The cockpit had some changes, the main one being scrapping the undercart control and scratch building the hand-pump lever, gun sight and so on. Hopefully, you'll see what I mean when the models are cleaned/repaired(!) and photographed. Just read the article in Military in Scale on the Pacific Coast Spit. Looks good!
Cheers, Terry.
The MkV to MkIA was easier, mainly removing the cannons and blisters, re-scribing gun access panels etc., and altering the oil cooler. The cockpit had some changes, the main one being scrapping the undercart control and scratch building the hand-pump lever, gun sight and so on. Hopefully, you'll see what I mean when the models are cleaned/repaired(!) and photographed. Just read the article in Military in Scale on the Pacific Coast Spit. Looks good!
Cheers, Terry.
- Thread starter
- #8
109ROAMING
2nd Lieutenant
course not
is it wrong to love a 100 kits? proberly not
Look forward to the photos!
is it wrong to love a 100 kits? proberly not
Look forward to the photos!
evangilder
"Shooter"
Here is a shot of the clip-tip Spit at Chino.
More here
Van Gilder Aviation Photography, Chino Airshow 2008, Supermarine Spitfire
And a different one the year before at Chino:
More of that one here, but the weather was hazy for that one, so not as good as this year's show.
Van Gilder Aviation Photography, Chino 2007- RAF fighters of WWII
And more of the same from 2006:
Van Gilder Aviation Photography, Chino AS, 2006- Spitfire
More here
Van Gilder Aviation Photography, Chino Airshow 2008, Supermarine Spitfire
And a different one the year before at Chino:
More of that one here, but the weather was hazy for that one, so not as good as this year's show.
Van Gilder Aviation Photography, Chino 2007- RAF fighters of WWII
And more of the same from 2006:
Van Gilder Aviation Photography, Chino AS, 2006- Spitfire
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Nice shots Eric! The first one is the MkXIV in the colours of the late 'Ginger' Lacey in the Burma theatre, a distinguished Sergeant Pilot during the BoB, who went on to command a Squadron. He used to be the President of an aviation club my brother was a member of, met him a few times; down to earth, great bloke, but dangerous to get into a round of drinks with!
The second shot, for Eightaf's benefit, is a MkIX (or XVI, need to check the serial) with the broader chord 'pointed' rudder. These became standard on the MkXVI, which was basically a MkIX with a Packard Merlin, and were often retro-fitted to MkIX's. Note that the latter aircraft has the later, Vokes carb/supercharger intake, which was much longer and deeper than that on the early MkIX's.
Looking forward to seeing some pics of the build mate. If you're still short of drawings etc, let me know, and I'll see what I can do.
Terry.
The second shot, for Eightaf's benefit, is a MkIX (or XVI, need to check the serial) with the broader chord 'pointed' rudder. These became standard on the MkXVI, which was basically a MkIX with a Packard Merlin, and were often retro-fitted to MkIX's. Note that the latter aircraft has the later, Vokes carb/supercharger intake, which was much longer and deeper than that on the early MkIX's.
Looking forward to seeing some pics of the build mate. If you're still short of drawings etc, let me know, and I'll see what I can do.
Terry.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Thanks guy. Great info on those spits, Terry! 
- Thread starter
- #14
Going with Johnnie Johnson's bird, which is apparently documented as flying 'LF'- 'Low Flying', shorthand for the clip-tip version.
What's the rhyme/reason for the pointy tail, BTW?
Eighth
What's the rhyme/reason for the pointy tail, BTW?
Cheers, Terry. Do you have something about the cannon-bulges? I think I have that one sorted, but 'you can't have too many references'. Also; saw a build of the very same model this Saturday last at a local show. The modeler created a hexagonal hole in the seat of the seat. Every reference I've consulted shows the seat pan as solid and I'm about to conclude that the modeler got it wrong (still a nice build, though), but I'm not above being shown the error of my ways.Airframes said:
Eighth
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Before you commit to a clipped wing Spit for Johnson's kite, check which one!
The most famous one of his, often seen in books and modelled by more people than probably any other Spit, was an early MkIX, with full-span wings. I'd need to check the serial number to give exact info though, which aint a problem. The one in question bore his initials as the code letters :- JE - J, had very small letters and numbers for the serial, and had a maple leaf in a white disc just forward of the cockpit. This was when he was leader of a Canadian Wing. As far as I know (but I could be wrong), Johnson never flew a clipped-wing Spit with these markings.
The 'pointy' rudder was as a result of making the chord (the width) broader, in order to provide more rudder response and, to an extent, counteract increased torque after the fitting of more powerful engines; the fin remained the same as the MkI on. This was the first stage of a redesign of the entire empenage, which led eventually to the much broader fin and rudder of the MkXIV and later models, as shown in the pic posted by Eric. From the Mk21 on, and on the Seafires from the same production series, the fin and rudder were changed yet again, being not only broader, but much taller also, and the eliptical wing shape virtually disappeared, attaining a straighter profile, not unlike that of the Tempest.
Again, on the cannon bulges, the 'blisters' over the breech and feed mechanisms, you need to know exactly which Mark, and which wing type. For example MkIXB, C, E, the reason being that, depending on the wing-type, and the armament fitted, the cannon blisters would be a different shape and size! These aren't easy to scratch build, even in 1/32nd scale, the best way being to either mould new ones in plastic card by the heat method, trim them and add to new panels, or try to mould them onto the wing in 'Milliput' or similar epoxy putty.
Never heard of a hole, hexagonal or otherwise, in the seat of a Spit. I've sat in, and taxied, a number of Spits over the years, MkII to Mk19, and all of them, even a MkII that fought in the BoB, had a 'solid' metal seat. There is often mention of, and modelled, a 'bakelite' or 'plastic' seat, dark orangish red in colour, but again, I haven't seen evidence of this, although I assume such a seat on some Spits must have existed. The one in the MkII mentioned was the original seat by the way, just in case somebody argues that it would have had the bakelite seat and must had had a replacement fitted!
Hope this has helped you a bit mate, good luck!
The most famous one of his, often seen in books and modelled by more people than probably any other Spit, was an early MkIX, with full-span wings. I'd need to check the serial number to give exact info though, which aint a problem. The one in question bore his initials as the code letters :- JE - J, had very small letters and numbers for the serial, and had a maple leaf in a white disc just forward of the cockpit. This was when he was leader of a Canadian Wing. As far as I know (but I could be wrong), Johnson never flew a clipped-wing Spit with these markings.
The 'pointy' rudder was as a result of making the chord (the width) broader, in order to provide more rudder response and, to an extent, counteract increased torque after the fitting of more powerful engines; the fin remained the same as the MkI on. This was the first stage of a redesign of the entire empenage, which led eventually to the much broader fin and rudder of the MkXIV and later models, as shown in the pic posted by Eric. From the Mk21 on, and on the Seafires from the same production series, the fin and rudder were changed yet again, being not only broader, but much taller also, and the eliptical wing shape virtually disappeared, attaining a straighter profile, not unlike that of the Tempest.
Again, on the cannon bulges, the 'blisters' over the breech and feed mechanisms, you need to know exactly which Mark, and which wing type. For example MkIXB, C, E, the reason being that, depending on the wing-type, and the armament fitted, the cannon blisters would be a different shape and size! These aren't easy to scratch build, even in 1/32nd scale, the best way being to either mould new ones in plastic card by the heat method, trim them and add to new panels, or try to mould them onto the wing in 'Milliput' or similar epoxy putty.
Never heard of a hole, hexagonal or otherwise, in the seat of a Spit. I've sat in, and taxied, a number of Spits over the years, MkII to Mk19, and all of them, even a MkII that fought in the BoB, had a 'solid' metal seat. There is often mention of, and modelled, a 'bakelite' or 'plastic' seat, dark orangish red in colour, but again, I haven't seen evidence of this, although I assume such a seat on some Spits must have existed. The one in the MkII mentioned was the original seat by the way, just in case somebody argues that it would have had the bakelite seat and must had had a replacement fitted!
Hope this has helped you a bit mate, good luck!
- Thread starter
- #16
Nor I, but it never hurts to ask.
As for the clipped tips, Wiki at least suggests that JE-J wore them. Other sources suggest that they are relatively easy to swap out, and I thought therefore that I couldn't be very off the mark if I did one as such.
Vice any substantial evidence to the contrary, this is the route I'll be taking for the following reasons:
I want a clip-tip;
I want something with invasion stripes;
Johnnie Johnson's bird can be said to meet both specifications, again unless I'm off the mark.
Feel free to correct my estimations, however. I'd go for any clip-tip bird that also had invasion stripes.
By the by the kit provides for a number of different wings, to include options that wouldn't be possible for a straight -IXc. Conceivably one could do a -V, or a -XIV, if in the case of the former one were willing to fiddle with the radiators or in the case of the latter were willing to re-contour the cowl.
All references are welcome, at that; particularly those which might correctly-reference what the RAF meant by 'interior green'. I'll be starting with the 'pit, natch.
I'll also see about taking photos so as to confirm that I'm not the modeler I think I am. Looking to get started by the start of the new year.
Eighth
P.S. Terry, if I can help with what articles you might be writing, let me know. I write myself.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Hi again mate,
No problem you doing the bird the way you want it! Of course, it's not impossible that Johnson flew a clippy with personal markings, it's just I haven't seen, or heard of one! As for clippy's with invasion stripes, I'll have a look at what I've got in the way of pictures etc, and other references, and hopefully get something posted before you start the build.
That RAF 'Interior Green' has always been a bit of problem for some modellers, particularly those that haven't been able to see the 'real' colour on a WW2 veteran aircraft. Humbrol do a colour that matches, can't quite remember the number, but I'm sure it's called 'Interior Green'. I normally just mix my own, not bothering too much about absolute accuracy, as there were variations in shade etc, depending on manufacturer, aircraft and so on. I'll try and post a pic showing this colour on an actual aircraft, or one of my models. It's basically a pale green, a bit like Sage green, with a hint of bluish grey! I normally just mix Humbrol No30 matt Dark Green with matt white, then add a spot of matt yellow - sounds odd, but it works!
The picture that Erich (evangilder) posted of the Spit XVI is that of one in markings shortly after D-Day, an aircraft from 2TAF, if I remember correctly, and this aircraft used to be based at Duxford, UK, in the 80's, early 90's., so there's one reference to start with! If you can narrow things down to a particular Squadron that you might want to represent, particularly one with clippy Spits, I can almost certainly find details for you.
My writing at the moment is centred on the sequel to a novel, which I am hoping to have published, plus some stuff for corporate training events, and the story behind some of my aviation painting and, of course,modelling subjects. But, help is often useful, so if I think I need anything, I'll give you a shout!
Terry.
No problem you doing the bird the way you want it! Of course, it's not impossible that Johnson flew a clippy with personal markings, it's just I haven't seen, or heard of one! As for clippy's with invasion stripes, I'll have a look at what I've got in the way of pictures etc, and other references, and hopefully get something posted before you start the build.
That RAF 'Interior Green' has always been a bit of problem for some modellers, particularly those that haven't been able to see the 'real' colour on a WW2 veteran aircraft. Humbrol do a colour that matches, can't quite remember the number, but I'm sure it's called 'Interior Green'. I normally just mix my own, not bothering too much about absolute accuracy, as there were variations in shade etc, depending on manufacturer, aircraft and so on. I'll try and post a pic showing this colour on an actual aircraft, or one of my models. It's basically a pale green, a bit like Sage green, with a hint of bluish grey! I normally just mix Humbrol No30 matt Dark Green with matt white, then add a spot of matt yellow - sounds odd, but it works!
The picture that Erich (evangilder) posted of the Spit XVI is that of one in markings shortly after D-Day, an aircraft from 2TAF, if I remember correctly, and this aircraft used to be based at Duxford, UK, in the 80's, early 90's., so there's one reference to start with! If you can narrow things down to a particular Squadron that you might want to represent, particularly one with clippy Spits, I can almost certainly find details for you.
My writing at the moment is centred on the sequel to a novel, which I am hoping to have published, plus some stuff for corporate training events, and the story behind some of my aviation painting and, of course,modelling subjects. But, help is often useful, so if I think I need anything, I'll give you a shout!
Terry.
evangilder
"Shooter"
We have a MkXIV at the CAF museum in Camarillo going through a restoration. They have painted the firewall and the crew chief called the color "cockpit green". I will try a get a pic of it next time I am out there.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks Eric, that would be helpful for Eightaf. And you're right, it's 'Cockpit Green', not Interior Green; the latter is the name given to the US colour.
- Thread starter
- #20
Do either of you (or anyone else for that matter) have a swatch for sky?
The codes are supposed to be that color, but they look a lot darker than what I think of when I think of sky. I don't mind redoing them, I have a printer and can make my own decals, but I'd like to have the right shade of the right color first.
I don't have a squadron in mind, Terry. I chose JE J because it was on the sheet, and because there's some not-inconsiderable history to go along with the markings. I'm up for anything though, if you have shots I'd love to see them. If you want an e-mail address to send them to, let me know.
What do you write, BTW?
I write science-fiction; I finished my first book about 9 months ago and am just putting the finishing touches on my second.
Thanks all. Hope my build justifies your efforts.
Eighth
The codes are supposed to be that color, but they look a lot darker than what I think of when I think of sky. I don't mind redoing them, I have a printer and can make my own decals, but I'd like to have the right shade of the right color first.
I don't have a squadron in mind, Terry. I chose JE J because it was on the sheet, and because there's some not-inconsiderable history to go along with the markings. I'm up for anything though, if you have shots I'd love to see them. If you want an e-mail address to send them to, let me know.
What do you write, BTW?
I write science-fiction; I finished my first book about 9 months ago and am just putting the finishing touches on my second.
Thanks all. Hope my build justifies your efforts.
Eighth
