Color of War: Air War-Raid on Tokyo

BlackSheep · Feb 25, 2022

Color of War: Air War-Raid on Tokyo

The above video can be found on YouTube.

While watching the video, which is color footage of a B-29 raid, I saw something interesting at about the 1'50" mark.
The footage is taken from within a B-29, in very loose formation during a daylight raid, and it is at the moment flak starts, fighters appear, but most interesting to me "phosphorus bombs are dropped from above". I have seen a sentence or two reference to the Japanese use of phosphorus and high explosive bombs against bomber formations in books like The B-29 Hunters of the JAAF but nothing more than someone saying it was done. Here, it is shown on film!
Seeing the problems Japanese interceptors had dealing with B-29 speed, height, and sheer size combined with the jet stream, fuel issues, and pilot shortages the question that begs for an answer is, "WHO WAS FLYING WHAT WHILE BOMBING B-29 FORMATIONS OVER JAPAN!!!!!!"

Anyone seen material referencing this tactic?

Thumpalumpacus · Feb 25, 2022

What "above video"?

GrauGeist · Feb 25, 2022

The phosphorus bombs were released by fighters, first used in the Pacific.

Here's a good source of info:

Aerial Bombs | Lone Sentry Blog

BlackSheep · Feb 25, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
What "above video"?

The title of the thread is the title of the YouTube video, sorry so screwed.

Thumpalumpacus · Feb 25, 2022

BlackSheep said:
The title of the thread is the title of the YouTube video, sorry so screwed.

No prob, I didn't understand that the thread title was the vid title.

The video in the title:

Thumpalumpacus · Feb 25, 2022

BlackSheep said:
While watching the video, which is color footage of a B-29 raid, I saw something interesting at about the 1'50" mark.
The footage is taken from within a B-29, in very loose formation during a daylight raid, and it is at the moment flak starts, fighters appear, but most interesting to me "phosphorus bombs are dropped from above".

I know that countries experimented with air-to-air bombing. I know that the Japanese also had a flirtation with large-caliber AA filled with submunitions. On the assumption that the footage is stock (rather than mission-specific), I don't know if that's accurate for the mission being described in the narration.

ETA: at 2:41, the narrator relates, "there is a fighter at eleven o'clock -- our tail-gunner is after him." It calls credibility into question, for me, that's a History-Channel-level of basic mistake.

fubar57 · Feb 25, 2022

Colour of the "Air War Raid on Tokyo" I want to watch?

BlackSheep · Feb 25, 2022

GrauGeist said:
The phosphorus bombs were released by fighters, first used in the Pacific.

Here's a good source of info:

Aerial Bombs | Lone Sentry Blog

For those links, you win the internet for the day! Thank you, truly fascinating especially the thought of acoustic fuzes being used to listen for the target.

BlackSheep · Feb 25, 2022

fubar57 said:
Colour of the "Air War Raid on Tokyo" I want to watch?

Yes

GrauGeist · Feb 25, 2022

A group of B-24s under attack by Japanese aerial bombs.

(source: old eBay auction)

Time-Life magazine had several similar photos in one of their publications from 1945, too.

BlackSheep · Feb 25, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
I know that countries experimented with air-to-air bombing. I know that the Japanese also had a flirtation with large-caliber AA filled with submunitions. On the assumption that the footage is stock (rather than mission-specific), I don't know if that's accurate for the mission being described in the narration.

ETA: at 2:41, the narrator relates, "there is a fighter at eleven o'clock -- our tail-gunner is after him." It calls credibility into question, for me, that's a History-Channel-level of basic mistake.

It appears to be a couple different missions shown, the one beginning about a minute and a half in with the Sgt doing a radio narration, I'm leaning toward stock footage with a decent editor but I'm not 100% sure. What I do think is that those are Japanese aerial burst bombs probably 250kg, according to the descriptions given in the links provided by Graugeist in post#3.

Thumpalumpacus · Feb 25, 2022

BlackSheep said:
It appears to be a couple different missions shown, the one beginning about a minute and a half in with the Sgt doing a radio narration, I'm leaning toward stock footage with a decent editor but I'm not 100% sure. What I do think is that those are Japanese aerial burst bombs probably 250kg, according to the descriptions given in the links provided by Graugeist in post#3.

Whether they're falling on bombers flying at 24k is what seems open to question to me.

BlackSheep · Feb 25, 2022

Interesting use of phosphorus, it's probably a good think the Japanese didn't have a better fuzing system or tried a remote detonation via radio.
A while back in the forum, I made mention of a couple of instances where the Japanese used phosphorus bombs to attack naval vessels. Another instance of it's a good thing that nasty stuff didn't suit the purpose.

BlackSheep · Feb 26, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
Whether they're falling on bombers flying at 24k is what seems open to question to me.

The second burst at 2'03" there are two planes in the lower right corner but the slight angle they are flying from the camera bird makes it hard to say with 100% certainty that they are B-29s. They don't have the lengthy look of the 29 and the tail isn't prominent enough to id. There is a slight chance of them being B-24s being that they look short, chunky, and the wing location.

The links in comment #3 do describe aerial burst bomb attacks on B-24s.

EwenS · Feb 26, 2022

A quick dig through my library reveals that between 24/11/44 on Mission 7, the first from the Marianas to Japan, to Mission 20 on 19/1/45, the bombing altitudes of the B-29s varied between 25,000 and 33,000 feet with one night mission at 22,000ft. Formation sizes varied between 29 and 111 aircraft taking off, with drop outs along the way. XXI Bomber Command analysed the 3051 recorded fighter attacks on B-29s in that period. 44% were delivered from the front quarter with 17% from high, 14% level and 13% from low. The remaining 66% of attacks were spread fairly evenly over the other 3 quarters and in terms of height.

After LeMay took over the next 8 Missions to Japan between Jan and early March were, with one exception, flown with an average bombing altitude of 27,000ft. After that it was a lot of night time fire bombing raids starting at 5-8,000 ft. In April there were attacks on the precision targets in Japan from medium altitudes (10-20,000ft).

So we have a range of mission profiles being flown over time, some of which would easily allow aircraft carrying phosphorus bombs to be above the B-29s.

special ed · Feb 26, 2022

Many of the fighter shots are tail chase from gun cameras. Only those fighters coming at you are from bombers. Did you notice at 1:45 the B-29 flying with nose gear down?

BlackSheep · Mar 3, 2022

EwenS said:
A quick dig through my library reveals that between 24/11/44 on Mission 7, the first from the Marianas to Japan, to Mission 20 on 19/1/45, the bombing altitudes of the B-29s varied between 25,000 and 33,000 feet with one night mission at 22,000ft. Formation sizes varied between 29 and 111 aircraft taking off, with drop outs along the way. XXI Bomber Command analysed the 3051 recorded fighter attacks on B-29s in that period. 44% were delivered from the front quarter with 17% from high, 14% level and 13% from low. The remaining 66% of attacks were spread fairly evenly over the other 3 quarters and in terms of height.

After LeMay took over the next 8 Missions to Japan between Jan and early March were, with one exception, flown with an average bombing altitude of 27,000ft. After that it was a lot of night time fire bombing raids starting at 5-8,000 ft. In April there were attacks on the precision targets in Japan from medium altitudes (10-20,000ft).

So we have a range of mission profiles being flown over time, some of which would easily allow aircraft carrying phosphorus bombs to be above the B-29s.

Thank you for doing the hard work, it makes it significantly easier for troglodytes, such as myself, to formulate opinions, theories, and best of all just develop a mental picture of the text in front of us. If I had a war nickel (35% silver!) for every time I've caught myself staring at a model aircraft or a relevant picture while paused in the middle of reading about some dogfight that took place decades before my birth, trying to compose a 3D image of what happened, I could probably buy the software to recreate it on my laptop, .

BlackSheep · Mar 3, 2022

special ed said:
Many of the fighter shots are tail chase from gun cameras. Only those fighters coming at you are from bombers. Did you notice at 1:45 the B-29 flying with nose gear down?

I saw that and was wondering if that was a mechanical failure or some sort of battle damage. I can't picture a scenario where a B-29 would need to deploy landing gear for the extra drag. Anyone?

special ed · Mar 3, 2022

Suspect as you do, either battle damage or a malfunction. If on mission return, the second B-29 could be providing escort and/or visual aid. If it were takeoff, he would have gotten out of the way of the mission and burned off fuel, dropped the load before any landing attempt with the activity now at a lower level at the base.
My father in law told of a B-24 mission take off (Pacific) where one of the B-24s blew up completely just after lift off. There was no interruption of the rest of the take off run/mission. They did not go to the debris field until the last aircraft had flown.

33k in the air · Mar 3, 2022

special ed said:
My father in law told of a B-24 mission take off (Pacific) where one of the B-24s blew up completely just after lift off. There was no interruption of the rest of the take off run/mission. They did not go to the debris field until the last aircraft had flown.

A similar tale is recounted on the 6 March 1944 mission to Berlin by the Eighth Air Force:

The only serious mishap during the take off was at Wendling, where a B-24 of the 392nd Bomb Group ran into a mist patch just off the end of the runway, failed to gain altitude, struck a tree and burst into flames. All ten crewman lost their lives. In B-24 'Jaw-ja Girl', in the line two behind the crashed aircraft, Lieutenant James Muldoon saw the flash and orange glow suddenly appear in front of him. There was a green light from the control tower and with a roar the next B-24 began its take-off run. Then it was Muldoon's turn. "Visibility was poor, we could see only the glow of the fire. Nothing was said over the radio but everyone knew what had happened. The big sweat was that the bombs might detonate as we passed over the crash site. There was no choice but to take off and try to swerve around the burning wreck." Muldoon pushed forward his throttles and accelerated the heavily laden bomber to flying speed, lifted it off the ground and eased it to one side of the orange glow, then leveled out and began his climb.

— Target Berlin by Jeffrey Ethell and Alfred Price, p. 38

Color of War: Air War-Raid on Tokyo

Banned

Major

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Banned

Major

Major

General

Banned

Banned

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Banned

Major

Banned

Banned

Master Sergeant

2nd Lieutenant

Banned

Banned

2nd Lieutenant

Staff Sergeant

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