Could the USSR have survived defeat at the gates of Moscow: December 1941? (1 Viewer)

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When I was stationed in Germany in the early 70s we were given briefings by Bundeswier officers who were veterans of the WW2 eastern front. They tried to impress on us that winters in Russia was a whole different magnitude of cold, and misery from what we would encounter elsewhere. He said you could hear trees and rocks exploding in the coldest nights, from the little bit of moisture in them freezing, that you could die from not using the exact correct proceduers for going to the bathroom, weapons cleaning, etc. stuff the Russians had lived with all their lifes, but the Germans had to learn as they encountered them, because they hadn't encountered them before.

Maybe they thought they were true winter fighters after Norway, but it's evident they weren't prepared for the winter they encountered in Russia.
 
How about 4 years of fighting on the Russian Front during WWI? Fighting in northern Italy during WWI? Fighting in Romania during WWI? Fighting in Finland during WWI?

I don't think the climate changed too much between 1918 and 1941.
 
How about 4 years of fighting on the Russian Front during WWI? Fighting in northern Italy during WWI? Fighting in Romania during WWI? Fighting in Finland during WWI?

I don't think the climate changed too much between 1918 and 1941.

Somehow Germans seems to have forgot all that, if the fact that it took many losses to learn how to make fairly sure that MG 34 will fire when the gunner pulled the trigger. After all the principal firepower of German squad. The troops had to learn that during the winter after they had learned, those who survived, that odds were that the MG 34 would not fire in cold weather if they had maintained it by the book. Finns had the teach Germans even the simplest things here in Finland when they found out how hapless Germans were in winter warfare. Finns began to give crash courses "How to survive outdoors during the winter" and "How to keep sentries combat effective during the winter" and had to sent small teams along the Eastern Front to teach the basics to selected groups of German officers and NCOs who then could teach other Germans. And Finns found out that some German high ranking officers were totally out of reality and saw survival of winter weather as "discipline question" ie if field regulations ordered something that should be done even if that meant dead or invalided sentry etc. Some of German troops understand some basics, especially those coming from East-Prussia where winters were sometimest rather harsh.

Juha
 
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I thorough agree on that -- and ves, I see the Russians losing their Caspian oil fields - and the LL route through Iran. But Britain and the USA would fly airstrikes against German forces IF it came down to that.

The oil fields would be destroyed by the retreating Soviets as much as possible - burning Kuwait on the Caspian. And those same fields would be within bomber range from Iran.

It is not a question so much of the Germans getting working oil fields as it is the Russians loosing them. What other large sources did the Russians have at the time or would they be almost entirely reliant on LL oil products?
The land east of the Urals is vast, empty and harsh ... but there is a railroad ... a railroad that has been absolutely historic in the history of modern Russia. It will be easier for the Soviets to bring up LL-USA material from east of them and push it west than it will be for the German military to support themselves through a western "rear" that is a former war-zone ... now constantly subject to communist guerillas ....

There are railroads and there are railroads. Some of the American railroads (tracks and trackbeds) never fully recovered from the punishment they endured in WW II just from the amount of traffic they carried and the lower time/manpower available for maintenance. Some major east-west US routes were four tracked in places, two sets of tracks dedicated to each direction and using 132lb to the yd rail. Just because a railroad exists doesn't mean it can handle an unlimited amount of traffic.

How much of the Trans-Siberian RR would have have to have been upgraded (better roadbed, heavier rails, more parallel tracks in places and or more/longer passing sidings, newer bridges) to handle a much increased flow of traffic? yes it could have been done and most likely would have been done but then without the Moscow rail hub distribution of material and men to the northern and southern parts of the front would have been much more difficult or the rapid transfer of forces of to reinforce defenders from attacks or to reinforce a successful local attack. These problems could be over come but, again, it is going to take a considerable amount of time, effort and aid.
 
Yes but not the Heer.

Sep 8, 1941. German offensive near the Litsa River.
9th SS Infantry Regiment participated in this attack. A Soviet counter attack routed the poorly trained Waffen SS unit. Heer soldiers from 2nd Mountain Division had to recapture the lost ground.
 
Now even if also in Northern Finland the worst unit was the half-trained 6th SS Mountain Division, which was at first really hopeless, not even the German mountain divisions particularly shined there. And ordinary Heer infantry divs were in trouble in forest fighting. Finns had to send their own units to help them in flank protection and in long flanking attacks through wilderness because the environment was too difficult to Germans. But I was talking on winter warfare and also Heer was poorly prepared for that, not only was equipment side lacking but also training. But Germans were rather fast to learn right tactics. During autumn and winter 44 when Finns were pushing Germans out from Northern Finland Germans did fairly well, sometimes their infantry and artillery co-operation was excellent and they always tried very hard to get their surrounded units out of pockets.

Juha
 
The OHLs own evaluation stated 1939 Heer infantry were more poorly trained then their WWI era counterparts. What do you expect when over 90% of the army consisted of new conscripts who have just completed initial entry training?
 
".... It is not a question so much of the Germans getting working oil fields as it is the Russians loosing them. What other large sources did the Russians have at the time or would they be almost entirely reliant on LL oil products? "

None, at the time. Once the Caspian fields are lost the USSR will be dependent on the USA for all their gas, diesel and lubricants - but with other priorities shifted, the USA has the capacity to supply, IMHO.

"... How much of the Trans-Siberian RR would have have to have been upgraded (better roadbed, heavier rails, more parallel tracks in places and or more/longer passing sidings, newer bridges) to handle a much increased flow of traffic? yes it could have been done and most likely would have been done but then without the Moscow rail hub distribution of material and men to the northern and southern parts of the front would have been much more difficult or the rapid transfer of forces of to reinforce defenders from attacks or to reinforce a successful local attack. These problems could be over come but, again, it is going to take a considerable amount of time, effort and aid."

In 1945 when the August Storm build up began - the Soviets left most everything in place in the West except Medical, Engineering and Communications units - they ran 100 trains a 24 hour cycle east (according to David Glantz), IIRC, in addition to trains running from the Pacific westwards carrying LL materials shipped from the USA.

The Russians build wider scale railroads for a reason .... :).

MM
 
The Finns even schooled the Russians in winter warfare in the Winter War. And they applied those recently learned lessons to the battle of Moscow.

It seems that most armies of the period didn't retain much of the leasons learned in WW1. That might have been particularily true of the Russians, thanks to Stalin's purges of the 30s.
 
I should have said thanks to their civil war and Stalin's purges of the 30s, Russia didn't have many or any WW1 experienced officers.
I'm not sure if that's a disadvantage or a advantage.

Most of Germanies WW2 generals had been mid grade officers in WW1, but how many WW2 Russian generals had WW1 experience?
 
I should have said thanks to their civil war and Stalin's purges of the 30s, Russia didn't have many or any WW1 experienced officers.
I'm not sure if that's a disadvantage or a advantage.

Most of Germanies WW2 generals had been mid grade officers in WW1, but how many WW2 Russian generals had WW1 experience?

At least CoS of red army during most of GPW, Shaposhnikov, was ex-tsarist officer
Zhukov and some others were ex-tsarist NCOs

Juha
 

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